Pat/Shhh AND cry it out???

[ava's maman]

DD is 9 1/2 weeks old and takes one to two hours of screaming to fall asleep in her crib at night and pat/shhh doesn't work - I pick her up when she screams and do pat/shh in my arms but when she calms down and I put her back she is back at screaming even if I do pat/shhh while she is in her crib.... the process takes two hours until she just wears herself out and falls asleep.
So my pediatrician told me today that it is ok to let baby cry it out at this age once a day and the gradually leave her to fall asleep on her own more often, but I hate to leave her alone in her crib and cry so can I do the pat/shhh while she is scraming in her bed - not pick her up but just be with her as she CIO?  Basically I would put her down and begin pat/shhh with her in bed and just keep doing that through the screaming?

[Deb_in_oz]

with BW i woudl like to look at why it may be taking 2 hrs of screaming to get to bed.  woudl you like to post her day?  at that age the likely culprit is overtiredness (cumulative thorugh the day which is why bedtime is often the worst tme of the day at this age) which is easily remedied with naps/reducing A time rather than continuing the scream sessions.

we can help you if you woudl like to have us look at her day

[ava's maman]

Thanks!  Well I am trying the EASY routine - wakes at 7, feed for 15 min, activity until 8:30 and then nap - I know she should be napping for 1.5 hrs but usually only makes it 40 minutes or so - she has had one or two naps for a little over an hour here an there and is only when in her swing.  I am trying that 3 hr EASY so it is a little thrown off buy her not sleeping the entire 1.5 hrs each time.  Wind down routine is 7:15 to 7:30 with pj's and a final feed.  She is usually cranky at this time but then really gets mad when I put her down in her crib.

[Deb_in_oz]

i woudl definitely just cut back on her A time a bit - the key thing with EASY is to keep the order of events E / A / S if she is not ready for a full 1hr 30 at 9 1/2 weeks that is really more common than you think. at that age a lot of the lo can only do 45min - 1hr and take until 3-4 mo to get to 1hr 30.  you may find that when you cut back A time she sleeps the 1hr 30 so you are not too far off 3 hr EASY - you just have a little A time upon waking, then feed ta 3hr (approx.) and then A and then S etc.  it is flexible and better to have a NOT overtired baby who does 2.5 - 3hr EASY than to push her too far and end up with 2hrs of screaming att he end of the day.

the routine in the book is a guide and not mean to be taken as a strict schedule. the exact 3 hr routine works for some babies (but not all - the ones that don't fit the textbook have to have it adapted/tweaked for them) HTH

[ava's maman]

Ok, so even if I put her down earlier (cut down on activity time) and she only sleeps 40min, that's ok to start? 

Also, what are your thoughts on having her use a pacifier in her crib until she falls asleep - I usually don't like to use the paci and have never used it at nighttime but it seems to soothe her a bit. 

She just resists going down for naps and bed in her crib!  She will sleep no problem in her swing or bouncy or on my chest! 

At this moment, I am trying to put her down for a last nap in her crib and she is screaming - I stood there for 20 minutes and intermittently gave her my pinky finger but is just screaming her lungs out and pat/shhh is not working.

[Deb_in_oz]

sorry but neither of my girls woudl accept a paci so i have no experience with that - the props board will have tons of info/tips.

when she is screaming and you do shh/pat how loud ae you shhing?  it has to be louder than her cries to be effective.

keep cutting back on her A time until she goes down to the cot with minimal fussing and you shoudl find that sleep training starts to work better (you could end up doing some shh/pat to help her sleep and eventually / quite soon if she is not overtired she shoudl be able to go to sleep with minimal fuss (some fuss is Ok - if there is screaming or real upset than it is usually a sign that either overtired or overstimulated in that cycle)

if you cut back on a time and she sleeps only 40 min i would spend another 20 min trying to extend with pat/shh.

also look at ytour windown routine and her sleep environment as both of those can play into short naps.

[ava's maman]

I shush pretty loud and right above her ear, very close to her head as I am holding her with her head in my shoulder.  When I put her in her crib, I shush just as loud but I am a bit farther as it kills to bend over that much in her crib - I am maybe a foot away from her ear.  I do tone the shushing down once she calms down but then raise my voice again if she starts to cry. 

Ok so after 20 minutes of trying to put her down for a nap just now, DH and I let her cry for a couple of minutes but then I went back in and gave her the pacifier for the first time and she sucked for less than a minute, let it go and has been asleep since!  I just don't want her to get addicted to the paci.  I will read about the props. 

I have a feeling that she is overtired when she is doing this at nap/bedtime, but I just feel like during her A time, she is so alert and enjoys playing that I don' know when is ok for me to put her down.  She rarely yawns or shows other signs besides just starting to fuss - help, am I not reading my baby?

[KellyC]

Hi there

We really needed the paci up until about 12 weeks.  We used pat/shush too if it wasn't enough so when the paci went Zander was already used to the method and not something else.  We found the paci really helped Zander get into good sleeping and feeding habits and getting rid of it wasn't as bad as I imagined it would be - although in retrospect I would have waited a little longer.  They were very helpful over on the props forum!

Kelly x

[Deb_in_oz]

I have a feeling that she is overtired when she is doing this at nap/bedtime, but I just feel like during her A time, she is so alert and enjoys playing that I don' know when is ok for me to put her down. She rarely yawns or shows other signs besides just starting to fuss - help, am I not reading my baby?

sounds like classic spirited baby (there seem to be a lot of them)  Cut the A time WAY back to 45min and see how things progress from there. if you have not already had a look there is a sticky on the EASY board for supporting moms of spirited babies (it is 25+ pages for a reason  :roll: ) my dd2 never showed tired signs and, like yours, seemed so alert and happy (the proof it was too long A time came when she was so overtired when i tried to finally put her down that she either did not nap or napped poorly etc)  Spirited babies are far from the textbook 3hr EASY at this age and unlikely to transition to 4hr EASY until 5-6 mo (for most of them). because they are hyper-alert they (although seemingly fine with the A time) are getting overstimulated and overtired during their A time - they rarely stop "doing" and everything stimulates them (even shadows on a wall) and it takes intervention from the parents to impose nap time on them rather than waiting for a yawn.