Stopping nighttime BF

[SierraKuo]

I read the following post, and found it soooo helpful!  However, the topic doesn't allow me to reply (the reply button is simply not there!)  and there were a lot of people trying this with BF, and I thought we could start a thread for applying the advice below to BF and share stories of how it is going.  My painful saga is detailed below the original post (thanks Leah's Mom!).

<sup>How we stopped the night feeds with a 9 month old
« on: December 01, 2005, 03:26:12 PM »
   
I just wanted to share my story in hopes that it may help another sleep deprived parent out there.  Our problem was feeding in the night. Leah already knew how to go to sleep on her own, she would just wake up to eat at night. I would feed her and she would go back into the crib awake and fall asleep.

Around 6 months old our DD, Leah started waking at night and the easy thing to do was to feed her. Major AP!  :oops: If I fed her she went right back to sleep, if not she would continue to wake up. From 5/6 months till 9 months she would wake up to three times a night to eat. The times were always erratic, so I knew she was hungry. What I didn’t know at the time was that I had trained her to be hungry in the night. If you were to have three meals in the middle of the night every night, eventually you would wake up hungry too! At the time I was stumped. She went to sleep completely on her own for naps and nighttime, so I knew she didn’t have a suck to sleep association. She did, however, take in less formula during the day than at night and she would refuse to eat any solids or breakfast (would you eat breakfast if you had drunk 10-18 ounces of formula at night?  :roll: ) After reading countless books, I figured out that YES, a nine month old may be hungry in the night IF you have continued to feed her every night. She was getting most of her nutrition at night instead of the day.

OUR PLAN – Tracy books suggests decreasing the ounces you give your child during the night every three nights. I decided to modify. Because I knew that she didn’t have a suck to sleep association I decided to keep the bottles at 6 ounces but add more water than formula every few nights. (I did read this in another book) I took it slowly, I knew she needed time to adjust.
Nights 1 – 3: All night bottles – 4 ounces milk 2 ounces water
Nights 3-6: All night bottles – 3 ounces milk 3s ounce water
Nights 6-9: All night bottles – 2 ounces milk 4 ounces water
Nights 9-12: All night bottles – 1 ounce milk 5 ounces water (I never had to do this!!!!)

After a week she stopped waking to eat!!!!!!!! We never even made it to nights 9-12. We have been free from nightwakings for a week and I feel like a new women! Leah eats breakfast like a champ now and takes around 20 ounces of formula during the day only! She sleeps from 6:30/7-6/6:30 with no wakings!</sup>

Okay, so I'm trying this with BF.  Tonight will be night 6 of trying this.  What I have been doing is just limiting the time she can nurse each time she wakes up.  She was eating anywhere from 6 to 8 minutes each time she nursed at night (generally erratic times, 2 to 4 times a night), so I limited it to 5 minutes for the first three nights, 4 minutes for the last two.  The results from the first four nights were encouraging - she was increasing the amount she ate during the day, both BF and solids.  We went down to about 2 feeds a night.  She would cry some afterwards, but nothing that was too bad.  First night total feeding was 17 minutes, 2nd was 13 minutes, 3rd was 9 minutes, 4th was 8 minutes.  Then last night things went nuts.  She ate foronly 3 minutes the first feed and went back down.  Second feed, she ate for4 minutes and went down, but then woke about 20 minutes later.  I tried consoling her for about half and hour, but she wouldn't have any of it.  I fed her again (only 4 minutes) and then she slept til morning.  That makes a total of 11 minutes, though - up, not down.

Here is my hypothesis - she needs the full tummy feeling after she wakes from hunger, even if she doesn't need the calories she gets from the extra time nursing.  Diluted bottles give that, but shortened BF doesn't.  What I am going to try next - slowly increasing the first night feed (basically making it a DF but shorter - she has never had a DF before - long story) and trying to phase out the second.  Then she gets the full tummy feeling from one, but doesn't need anymore calories through the night, and hopefully her total nursing time per night doesn't increase.  If that works (please, oh, please!), then I'll wait a few days after the one feed a night is established, and then drop the minutes on that one feed.  If the second feed reappears, then I'll just figure that she still needs a DF (she is only 6 months after all) and leave it there and try it again in another month or so.

So anyway - advice?  success stories?  empathy? 

[Kimberly®]

Not much in the line of advice from me. It sounds like you have a good solid plan. I like how thought out it is
The fact that the times have been getting shorter shows that you are making progress.
Good luck to you. Please let us know how it goes.

[teezee]

i cut out night feeds this way (at six months) as my lo was getting MOST of her calories at night (oh was this a mess for me to clean up!!)...i also bf and cut down minutes and ran into many roadblocks ...the first thing i can think of is has lo been through 6 months growth spurt yet? if not, maybe continue feeding until it has passed.

second, when lo first wakes instead of feeding, maybe try to settle first before feeding and see how that works. if lo wakes within the hour you can be sure it is hunger and feed...this will also ensure lo is hungry and will take the 'right' amount kwim?! it is a long road - and some nights in a sleep deprived state will seem to have glitches - but it works! it took me a little over a month to undo the damage but was well worth it.

does lo take a paci?...i know there are props mods saying...bad, bad..but after cutting lo short on a night feed she would cry b/c she wanted the comfort of bfing til she wanted to stop and i would immediately put the paci in and shh her and hold her to sleep. i was worried at the time i was creating more problems..but babysteps kwim...one battle at a time!! it didn't create any other props problems, after she was weaned off of the night feedings she needed a bit of sleep training - but most of the wakings cleared on its own without having to wean her off of any other 'props'! good luck with everything! hth! let me know if you need anymore support!!

[Katet]

I have to agree with Tawnya, I (with both boys) treated the first wake up as a non feeding one, that way they learn not to associate all wake ups with feeding. then feed at the next wake up even if it is only 20mins later then I offered a normal feed at the next wake up for 3 days, then cut back on the first feed, by which stage the first wake upkind of became the first feed & then the other feeds dropped off pretty quickly after that.

For me it has been varied lengths of time it took, I went through it 2x with ds#1 first he was 6mo & it was easier than the 2nd (older & started due to sickness ( with ds#2, also started due to sickness it was about a month.... just dealing with an occasional 4/5/6 am wakeup/feed now )
Also it is VERY normal to have regressions here & there.

Sounds like you are going well

[Melis]

I don't believe in the "crying it out" theory to stop night feedings, make babies sleep, etc.   I got up 2-3 times a night with my son until he was about five months old.  Once he officially doubled his birth weight, I knew he could sustain himself through the night (a good 6-8 hours).  We tried letting him cry, the whole ferber thing, but it DID NOT work.  It made him worse.   He just wasn't ready, so i kept it up.  But then I started realized that he was eating for a few minutes, but then was really just sucking, so we tried teh binkie swap.  Now when he cries, I send my husband up immediately to give him his pacifier/binkie.  Usually, he'll take it and go back to sleep.  This used to happen 2-3 times a night.  Now he's down to once a night with this, and learning to put the binkie in himself.  So this is good.  Sometiems he does have a few nights of wanting to eat at midnight or 4am (like now, he's teething), but in general, our eight-month old is doing well.  But the REAL winner to weening him from eating all night long and sleeping was putting him to bed awake.  It did two things 1) since I jostled him awake (not wide awake, just drowsy enough to realize he was being put to sleep in his crib), he had a chance to tell me if he was still hungry or not before going to sleep, and 2) he not only learned to go to sleep on his own, but he goes back to sleep during the night on his own because he doesn't wake uip freaking out going "where did mommy go?" because he is exactly where he remembers last being.  These things made a big difference.  but now, if i could just figure out how to get him to sleep past 4am, we'd be good.  But in general, he sleeps from 8:30-6, eats, sleeps again until 7, then up.  Not bad.

[rosie and joe's mummy]

we stopped night feeds with rosie between 8 and 10 weeks!!  i wouldn't recommend anyone expects a baby to stop night feeds that early but we tried it and it worked and she's been great at night ever since.

what we did was this:

everytime she woke up in the night i would try things in order to see what would settle her, obviously if she settled after step one i didn't need to progress further.

1.  put her lullaby machine on
2. give her a paci to suck
3. pick her up for a cuddle
4. give her a feed

initially she went back to sleep at step 2 at her 1am wakeup for the first few nights, but still needed a feed at 4 am. then she stopped waking at 1 am after about 4-5 nights.  it took another week before the 4am waking stopped. but in the meantime the length of time she fed for at 4 am reduced.

i should also say i did try do dream feeds and i used a topup in a bottle of milk expressed in the morning, at the dreamfeed to make sure she was really full!

she's now 20 weeks old and still in that night time routine, and we still use the 4 steps if she wakes in the night.

i suppose i should also add that she's not a crying baby, and never has been, so it's not a case of letting her cry at all, she just grumbles to herself when she wakes up. the only time she ever cries is daytime naps when she's overtired and struggling to sleep.

[Elphyrafire]

Hmmmm- good ideas but keep in mind... if you replace with the paci you could end up with a LO like mine- doesn't need to eat but needs that %@$ paci put back in his mouth... like 10 times a night!
The way we got rid of the night feeds was putting him on a 4 hour feeding schedule in the day. Less feeds meant he took more at each one. Sounds weird but got rid of the nightnursing. We do the 4hour EASY: feed at 7, 11, 3, 7 and then dreamfeed at 10.
Now we just have to get rid iof the nightwakes,

[Katet]

Yes one KEY is absolutely to make sure they go to sleep from am "awake" stage at the start of the night.
I have never let either of my boys CIO, I have walked them around the house & cuddled until they are calm, offered water pretty much done anything other than offer a feed at the wake up I was trying to wean... I think for me that was the success, they knew Mummy was there for them & so when each night feeding was weaned it was less & less effort.

[rosie and joe's mummy]

i must be lucky because my LO has never NEEDED the paci, she's always just spit it out when she's finished sucking.
in fact now, if she's awake and you give her a paci she pulls it out herself after a few minutes - then goes for the thumb!!  so i guess at night now if she needs to suck for comfort she uses her thumb.

i have always been careful about not putting the paci back in if it comes out, and it's not the first line of defence when she wakes up either.

[SierraKuo]

Thanks for all of the good advice! 

Things have been up and down.  Night 6 was a major bust - up three times in the first 2 hours, and three more times throughout the remainder of the night.  My DH and I talked it over, and since our LO isn't really a fussy baby in general, we figured there was more to it than wanting to eat.  Now are trying to deal with what we suspect are some tummy problems.     On the nights where her tummy problems are under control, she only wakes up once to eat.  But only two out of the three last nights are that way, which makes it hard for me to consistently try to limit her food at night.

Anywho, we had a Dr appt Friday to see what we can do for her.  If it's not one thing, it's another!   

BTW, my LO won't take a passy or bottle - at least not to suck.  She will chew on them like toys, but won't suck on them.  I have hopes that slowly decreasing her minutes will work, but we have to get all of the other issues taken care of first.  *sigh*

[joanmarie]

Thank you for starting this thread. I was wondering how hard this (gradually elimiating feeds) would be with breastfeeding. During night feeds DS puts up quite a fuss if I try to remove the breast before he is finished or if he is comfort sucking.
I think part of our issue is hunger (maybe caused by me starting to feed him twice a night).The rest of it, I don’t know? I am not sure why he wants to suck to sleep during the night because he doesn’t do that at other times. (Well, occasionally he does bf to almost asleep if he is really tired at bedtime, but I try to prevent it.)
I just posted (it’s a long one!) last night about our nightwaking problems, and hopefully someone will reply to me soon. I am soooo tired!
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=60091.msg435016#msg435016

And once I figure out what is going on I will be keeping an eye on this thread for advice about eliminating night bf.
My questions for those who have done it…
How did your lo react when you took the breast away “early”? Did anyone protest vehemently and what did you do?

teezee- you mentioned a pacifier, but my lo (8mo) has never taken one (tried it under 3 mo but he didn't much take to it)
would it be crazy to introduce it at sleep times at this age?

[teezee]

my lo wouldn't take a paci for the first few months but i had heard it would help with her reflux (the sucking) so kept trying and she took it - introducing now..don't know - my lo only take it for bed pretty much or in the car when it is a 'road trip' and she needs to sleep...she would really, really protest wheni would take the breast away when doing the weaning. i would comfort her and put the paci in so she still could 'comfort' suck...just not me! as far as introducing a paci this late in the game - i don't know if i would personally do that as now at this point i am trying to figure out exactly how i can wean the damn thing!! it is all preference and totally your choice! you will make what call is right for you and your lo. good luck with everything!

[SierraKuo]

Okay, I am totally desperate now.

My LO's night wakings are now typically once between 10:30p and 11p (at which time I feed her a full meal but try not to let her linger) and then again around 2:15a.  A couple of times I have turned on the little lullaby toy, and she fussed every 20 minutes or so until I fed her shortly after 3a.  It wasn't a full feed (limited to 4 minutes), and she didn't suck strongly anyway.  Then she would sleep until 6:30 or 7a.  Last night I tried giving her the shortened feed the first time she woke up, and then she woke again at 5:30a awake and ready for the day.   

Questions:
Should she be on a 4 hour EASY during the day?  What elements in her day routine could help most with her nighttime sleep?
She won't take a passy (not to suck, anyway, but to play with like a toy) but she may take a bottle if I introduce it.  Should I?
If a nursing is a habit, then will limiting the minutes be effective anyway?
My husband is worried about water intoxication if I start giving her water during the night - is that going to be an issue?

I have been stressing about this nighttime sleep thing ever since her 8th week, since she is a Textbook/Angel with a bit of Spirited.  I feel like such a failure because she isn't sleeping through the night yet.     But I can't bear the thought of letting her CIO, which is the advice that I get from most of the moms I know locally.  She used to sleep 7 to 8 hours straight before we took an international trip and everything got mucked up, so I know she can do it - I just don't know how to help her.

Thanks in advance,
Sarah

P.S.

I have to agree with Tawnya, I (with both boys) treated the first wake up as a non feeding one, that way they learn not to associate all wake ups with feeding. then feed at the next wake up even if it is only 20mins later then I offered a normal feed at the next wake up for 3 days, then cut back on the first feed, by which stage the first wake upkind of became the first feed & then the other feeds dropped off pretty quickly after that.

Katet - could you elaborate a little more?  It sounds like something that I would like to try.  Thanks!

[Katet]

Sarah, stop stressing about the night waking... if she has 1 oz of spirit in her then every milestone will be bumpy, so work on not feeding, but her sleeping through, some babies don't do that consistently until 2-3yo...I found the best way to live with nightwaking is to accept it as a norm & be delighted when it didn't happen... which incidently when I took the pressure of I got longer sleeps. I think primarily as your lo (esp when bf) picks up on your tension. BTW, I think 1 night wake (10.30/11pm is a df) isn't too bad if she has had her routine upset by international travel

With the not feeding the first wakeup the idea is they learn that they don't get a "reward" ie feed when the wake... if you feed the first time, then the "expectation" from them is that all wakeups are feeds. So by re-settling & getting them back to sleep they learn ok not feeding time... if they were actually hungry, then they will probably wake up 20mins later (which if you have been giving a 10.30pm feed will probably be the case) then when they next wake be that 20mins, or 3 hours later you feed. I have done this with good success with both my boys... but I spent time "cutting back the time" of the first feed before I did it, so rather than them being hungry for the "full meal" they got at X time, they had got used to only a "cracker"

For anyone reading this I would only suggest this for babies over 6 months (& on solids) where physiologically they can manage at least 6-8 hours... I personally think with a bf baby, cutting back under 6mo also "effects their comfort" as well as nutrition as some women just can't supply sufficient milk if they don't feed for more than 6 hours

I wouldn't go introducing a bottle unless you want it for day time.

[rosie and joe's mummy]

yes i thin kbabies have to be physiologically ready to do that AND mothers have to be producing enough milk. I have been lucky that i seem to have two great big cows udders plastered on my chest that don't stop making milk for anyone!  i was even leaking milk for 4 weeks before i actually had rosie!

but i do think that in younger babies there are a few cues that can help you determine if they are ready to.

firstly if they only suck for a few minutes then they are not doing it because their bodies need feeding, it is just a habit they are in and then it's up to you if you want to "break" it or see if they grow out of it themselves.

secondly rosie actually had a lot of abdominal discomfort during the night when she was night feeding, she would groan and grumble for up to 2 hours after each night feed, which is why i decided i had to do something about it, as she was keeping me awake for 2 out of the 3 hours in between! once we stopped those night feeds the groaning stopped and also her evening colic seemed to go as well???