Am I patting/sshhing for too long?

[Kirsty in Aus]

Hi,

I've just checked the FAQ, but am in need of some reassurance. I started my now 5 week old on EASY last Friday. Friday night took over 1.5 hours of patting and shhing to get her to sleep finally (straight after a feed, so she shouldn't be hungry) and the naps during the daytime needed just as lengthy times to settle her. This has gradually decreased to be about 30 minutes now. I'm staying in there patting and shhing until DD is totally asleep. She often startles awake, and is so bright-eyed you'd think she'd been asleep for 2 hours, not 2-10 minutes. I do swaddle her, which she tends to fight against as she tries to get at her hands.

This afternoon, after her 1pm feed, it took an hour to get her settled, then I must've left her too soon, as she was awake very quickly thereafter. Another 30 minutes of patting and shhing, and she fell asleep just when I was going to give her the 4pm feed early ...
Should I be patting and shhing for so long? I think she's generally overtired and hopefully not so overstimulated now. With her feeds taking an hour or more, and then her settling time, most of her daytime naps don't last longer than 1 hour before it's time for the next feed. I have once or twice let her sleep for an extra hour through the allotted feed time, as I can't bear the bags under her eyes. She's probably not getting more than 8, maybe 10 hours sleep in a day. Everything I've read suggest a baby of this age should be sleeping at least 5 hours more, and I don't think this is her biorythms, based on her behaviour and how much she can fight going to sleep at night.

Should I be spending up to an hour and a half (even a bit more) settling her at nap time or in the evenings?
Should I be staying until she's truly asleep, gradully decreasing the pats as she settles and reducing the sshhing?

Thanks for your help,
Kirsty

[Scrapbooker]

The sh/patting does seem a bit long, but my question would be more of why is it taking that long (not that you are doing it longer than it takes)?  Can you post your schedule?  How long is A time (it inlcludes feeding, diaper change, play time and wind down-or whatever time before she's actually asleep)?  Is she crying through pat/sh or just not "totally" asleep?  What cues are you seeing to keep doing it? (sorry for the interrogation, butthis will help the ladies help you)

[Kirsty in Aus]

Okey dokey, here's yesterday as an example:

E 8:15 - 9:20 (had to wake her up, feed through the night was at 3:10-4:15)
A 9:20-9:55
S 10:15 - 11:15 (took 20 mins to settle)

E 11:15 - ? (had to wake her up, and then she fell asleep during the feed)
A ?
S 1:00 - 1:45

E 1:55 - 2:50 (had to wake up)
A 2:50 - 3:00
S 4:30 - 5:00 (settling took from 3-4:30)

E 5:00 - 5:45 (had to wake up)
A 5:45 - 6:50 Kicking on mat, cuddles with Grandma, tried to put her in the sling to see if she'd nap there, as catnaps haven't happened yet, no luck on the nap front, but she was generally quiet

E 6:50 - 7:45
A 7:45 - 8:30 top to toe wash, sitting in bouncer (no toys overhead) while we ate dinner

E 8:30 - 9:30
A none Settling took about 1.25 hours, with 6 big crying sessions (she needs to be picked up to soothe her, I put her down as soon as she's calm, but as soon as she gets horizontal, not even in the basinette yet, she starts whinging), and then 4 sets of startles after she'd calmed before she went to sleep. This was the first time I noted crying and startling. The startling generally wakes her right up. I know she's overtired at this stage, but I don't know how to do the cluster feeds *and* get her to catnap when it takes anywhere from 20 mins - 1.5 hours or more to get her to sleep.
S 10:40 - 2:20am

No dreamfeed, given when she went to sleep. Took an hour to get her to sleep after the 2:20am feed this morning.

Cues I'm going with: yawns. Toto's Mum on the EASY forum suggested that a baby this young doesn't need much A time, so yesterday I was pretty much trying to go straight to nappy change and wind down from the feed.

[cajunpowermom]

Kristy----I am right here with you-- I am wondering if I am patting too long. I normally stop the shhh not long after he stops fussing but I keep on patting. If he makes any sounds I start the shhh again never stop patting. I am wondering if I am patting too long. He will start to try to get his hands and then his eyes pop open and he starts to wiggle again. I find I am always guessing "Do I stop patting" Tonight it only took 25 minutes of patting and then I slowly backed off and stopped. I haven't heard him yet so hopefully this means he will stay asleep.

I just put in my head DONT GIVE UP and I just repeat that and pray while I pat.
I hope someone will reply to our post and give us some advise

Happy Patting 

Kessie

[Jaime]

shh/pat can easily take 20-30 minutes at first, because you are doing it until they are in deep sleep, and it takes about 20 min to get there.  once your baby starts to get the idea, you can back off a bit.

btw, kristy... an hour to feed?  that seems a bit on the long side.... could she be pacifying at the end there??  that might be contributing to the situation as well....

[Kirsty in Aus]

I'm finding it's still taking a good hour of shh/pat to get DD to sleep. Yesterday afternoon, I got so frustrated after an hour that I gave up and probably paid for it last night (I tried shh/pat from 10:30-11:30, then DH did from 11:30-12:30 in the morning without getting her to sleep).

I'm really concerned, as after a week of this, there's only been one day when DD has had more than 10 hours sleep. She's only 5 and a bit weeks old, so she should be having more than that. I'm also concerned that when I do settle her, she's getting maybe 45 mins during the day before I have to wake her for next three hour feed. To me, this seems to be perpetuating her overtiredness, rather than making it better. This morning I let her sleep for an extra hour to try to help her get more sleep. I know she's not going to sleep or settle well at night if she doesn't sleep well during the day, but I can't see how that will happen if she's only getting a total max of three hours sleep between all of her naps during the day. A lot of the shh/patting is getting her settled and calm, as she goes back to being wide awake when I put her down, and then each time she cries (anywhere from 2 - 10 or more times). Each set of crying "resets" the whole situation, so I need to calm her down and then hope she doesn't startle and cry again and this time might be the final set to get her to sleep. When she's finally at the point where the startles don't wake her so much and she can get through them, then it's about 20-30 minutes to ger her to sleep. My arms are killing me. (whinge whine).

Just a bit frustrated with it all, and of course I hate seeing DD all worked up and overtired.

Yes, an hour is possibly a bit long to feed, but she can be quite a sleepy feeder. I have no particular sensation of let downs or emptying, but I have seen a lactation consultant, and she's recommended about 20 mins per side. If DD is sleepy, I'll change sides twice to keep her interested in the different milk and different flow rates (at the LC's suggestion). I'm hoping her eating speed will pick up soon - I read somewhere that it does between 6-12 weeks.

[nikkik]

My DD was easily startled and the'd we'd have to start the whole thing over too.  We swaddled her EXTREMELY tight (my father thought she'd end up clausterphobic) but it would keep her from flinging her arms out and waking.  I've been there thinking that the shush/pat will never end but it will work.  your lo is still very little so try not to get discouraged; you're on the right track!

[Jaime]

Yes, an hour is possibly a bit long to feed, but she can be quite a sleepy feeder

i think that's part of it.  she is probably getting more than 3 hrs of sleep a day, but it's while you are trying to feed her.  i think maybe unintentionally she is learning to feed to sleep, and that can also be why shh/pat is so difficult; she doesn't understand why there is no breast to help her fall asleep again.  might be worth talking to your lactation consultant some more to see if she has any ideas....   

[Scrapbooker]

I would suggest the tight swaddle too. 

I used to take my dd out for a walk around the house before feed as she wasa sleepy feeder also at first.  I woke her then talked a bunch before feed and made sure room was well lit.  As soon as she fell asleep on the breast, I picked her up and burped her (to wake her more) or changed her diaper (even if I just put the same one back on) as this seemed to wake her quite well (maybe the sound of the stickers).  Otherwise, the feed is going to take a long time if she's left to her own devices (sleeping) and maybe get into a bad habit.

Also, A time starts with the feed (when she wakes up) so depending on how much she is sleeping during feed, she's already been up for and hour before diaper change which all together will give her a long A time.

DD is going to be o.k.  That amount of sleep is ideally too little, but with all the colicky babies out there (and mine had reflux) many a baby has had less than 10 hours of sleep a day.  It's not ideal, but don't worry about it for now, just try to find the specific problems and fix them.  You're doing great with the shh/pat.  Keep it up.  The time will reduce itself eventually.