Confused! Please help to clarify!

[Taryns Mom]

Hi,

My dd is 15 weeks and it is day 7 of trying to implement the 3 hour EASY and independent sleep training.   (I'm a little exhausted to say the least)  Previously, we didn't really have a structured routine and she would basically sleep on me or wherever she would let me place her without crying for naps and the crib at night.  She's slept through the night most of the time.  But one night of trying to put her to sleep for 3 hours by nursing made me realize that I don't want her to be dependent on nursing/rocking to sleep.  My friend told me about BW and so it began...  I've seen some progress so far, but I am a bit confused on the shh/pat and pu/pd techniques.  It would be great if anyone can clarify for me.

The positives so far...   I used to have to nurse, rock and sway Taryn to sleep so, it's been nice not having her glued to me every second of the day.  Also, she's become quicker at eating.  I think before she would sleep and eat at the same time but now that S and E are more distinquished activities, she now takes 15 mins instead of 1 hour to eat!  Yeah!   

However, it still takes me awhile to put her to sleep.  I know it's only day 7, but last night it took me 2 hours to put her to sleep and I think she's overtired. 

Need clarification on: 
1) Mantra cry. 
I think this is critical for the technique to work, as it should indicate that LO is trying to sleep by herself vs. her actually needing help.

a) Distinguishing the mantra cry.  Sometimes I find it difficult to distinguish between a mantra cry and a genuine cry.  Thus, perhaps not being very consistent.  She usually starts the mantra cry as soon as I place her down, but she also screams and I think sometimes it starts out as a mantra cry and then becomes a genuine cry.  I've read BW SAYP about mantra cries many times, but it's difficult to place theory into action. 

b) I know that you aren't supposed to pick them up during the mantra cry, but what ARE you supposed to do?  At first, because I didn't realize it was a mantra cry, I would picked her up, but she would often arch her back and then I would put her back down.  Now, when I can distinguish a mantra cry, I leave the room and a couple of times she has fallen asleep by herself.    If I leave the room, is that the same as CIO or CC?  Or are you supposed to leave the room to promote independent sleeping?  Or are you supposed to stay in the room and still comfort her? Very confused.

Am I interpreting the following correctly?  Is it that with a mantra cry and arching her back, she is trying to sleep on her own.  I have been trying to figure this out over the past few days, but right now I am leaving the room with a mantra cry.  If she arches her back and is crying, I'll pu/pd and pat/sh her sitting in my lap until she is calm and then put her down.  I tried the pat/sh her while in the crib the first few days.  However, I found that sometimes once I turn her onto her side for the pat/sh, she arches her back.  So, recently, I've been just trying to calm her, and once she is calm, leave the room.  Is all of this a correct interpretation of the concept?  The part that I am a bit worried about is leaving the room for the mantra cry and whether that is CIO or CC?  It's also difficult hearing her cry for so long. 

2) Resistance
My dd basically starts to resist the moment I place her on the receiving blanket to be swaddled. Right away she arches her back and cries.  Therefore, I can't even sit with her without her arching her back.  So, I place her in the crib.  If she settles, then I leave the room.  If she cries then I pick her up and settle her.  Is this correct?  Will she always be resisting sleep?  It seems like such a negative association with sleep, doesn't it? 

3) PU/PD
When I pick her up and place her on my shoulder, I find that she looks around alot and is not focusing on sleep.  So, I sit her up on my lap and pat/shh her.  Is this ok?  Or is this a prop? 

4) 3 to 4 Hour EASY
She has 2 more weeks til she turns 4 months.  Boy, does time fly!  Now that she is starting to eat quicker, do I start to switch her to the 4 hour EASY.  I find that during A time, however, she starts to get tired after 20-30 mins of A, so I'm not sure if she would last that long of A yet.  Should I wait til she is more settled into this 3 Hour routine first?  The following is what our EASY schedule has been like for the past week.

E: 8 am (a couple of days I've tried to start at 7 am) 
A: 8:25 - 9:00
S: 9:00-11:00 (however, difficult to put her to sleep, so only getting 30-40 mins)
Y: Y=pat/sh and pu/pd
E:11:00
A:11:25-12:00
S:12:00-2:00 (same thing; usually only getting 30-40 mins... very frustrating)
Y: try to eat lunch without waking her!
E: 2:00
A: 2:25-3:00
S: 3:00-5:00 (same thing; usually only getting 30-40 mins)
Y:
E: 5:00
A: 5:25-6:00 (she's usually overtired by now)
S: 6:00-8:00 (difficult to put her to sleep, so it takes that long to get 30-40 mins)
Y:
E: 8:00
A: bath
S: 8:30pm
E: 10:50pm dream feed and sleeps until 7 or 8am  (She'll wake up around 4 am but is able to settle herself back to sleep.  Thank, God!)  She woke up once during the week but that was because she peed all over the mattress.  Hopefully, she can keep up the sleeps through the night!

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!  It's my first child and this mothering thing is a tough job! 

Charmain

[Lizziebeth]

Hi there, sounds like you are doing great on only 7 days.

Yes, you are correct about the mantra.  When you are sure it's a mantra, you can leave the room, it's not the same as CIO.  She is just putting herself to sleep and making some noise while she does it.

As soon as it's a "mummy I need you cry", you go straight back to help her settle again.  I agree it's not always easy to distinguish the two at first. 

The mantra is usually like a softer, moaning kind of cry that is gradually getting quieter and quieter  Quite different to a proper cry.  A mantra can escalate into a proper cry though just to confuse things!  The only way I could work it out was to ask myself, "does it sound like she's ok in there" or " is she getting upset and needs me?"

If you are not sure  it's a mantra then err on the side of caution and help your LO.  In these early days, it will be ok.  Later on, you will definitely know your baby's mantra cry and you'll feel happy to leave her to it.

In any case, you may better off with shush/pat rather than pu/pd.  It can work very well for babies of all ages and PU/PD is often too stimulating for babies under 4 months.  Also they have less self-soothing ability at under 4 months so benefit from the extra help you give with shush/pat.   PU/PD is always the last resort when all else has failed.

Have a read of this below, a moderator here gave it to me when DD was about 3 months, I'm sure she won't mind me forwarding it to you.  It explains very well how to do shush/pat and avoid it becoming a prop. 

"As for pat/shh:  Find what works for her - patting, rubbing - her head, back, head - anything that can be done in the crib and can be lessened as time goes by - you can use.

After wind down, place her in the crib (if she is fussing prior to the crib you can start pat/shh on your shoulder) saying your phrase - I love you its time for sleep - whatever.  Put her in the crib calm but awake - always. Don't make her drowsy beforehand - you want her to get sleepy IN the crib, not in your arms or she will always need that.  No motion before sleep.

If she isn't crying after she is set down, step back ans see what she does.  If she begins to cry go to her, turn her on her side and begin to pat or rub, or whatever she finds soothing, ans shh or whatever she likes.  Do this until you see her start melting into the mattress - don't stop, don't take a break during this patting - keep at it until she melts.  When you see this melting, slow your patting down, and stop shhing.  Slow, slower, slower over the next mins or so - watching her.  If she starts up pat faster and wait til she is melting again, then start slowing again.  When it seems as if she is going to fall asleep - stop patting, and leave your hand there for a moment or two - make sure she isn't getting riled up.  Then let go and step back and see what she does.  Keep in the back of your head to help less and less as she gets older to prevent your patting from becoming a prop. 

You repeat this is she wakes early from a nap, before naps if she needs it and night wakings unrelated to pain or hunger.  Always give her a chance to try and settle on her own - which means not rushing in at every sound."

Also read these link about not letting it become a prop
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=26672.msg487695#msg487695

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64108.0


As for the sleep resistance, it may be because this is all new to her.  But another possibility is that she isn't  tired enough to sleep after only one hour awake time.   Sometimes those yawns can be very misleading!  What are her sleepy cues and are you sure she is tired?   An average A for her age is 1.5hr - 1.75hrs but your LO may genuinely be tired before this, it all depends. 

DD was forever yawning early at about 40 mins A time but wouldn't go to sleep til about 1.5 hr A.  I think I was putting her to bed when she wasn't tired and that's why she wouldn't sleep.

Also, when she's had a 45 min nap, how much awake time does she have before the next nap?  I wasn't quite sure whether she is waking at 9.45am or 11am for example, so I couldn't work this out from your routine.  If she's having a very long time awake after a short nap this will make her overtired for the next nap and this will result in another 45 min nap.

HTH! 

[Taryns Mom]

Hi Lizziebeth,

Thanks so much for your advice! It's been a tough week, but it's getting better!   

Regarding the mantra cry, it's good to know that you can leave the room, which is what I've been doing.  It's still sometimes difficult to distinguish, but I'll keep working on it.  I'll try to think about it as to whether "she is getting upset and needs me". 

Thanks for the info on the Shh/pat.  When she cries, I usually hold and pat her for about 1-2 minutes and often times she becomes drowsy.  So, I shall have to adjust that to hold her for less time, until she is calm and put her down earlier.  It would be better if I could calm her in her crib, but often times, she arches her back and cries more when I try to turn her to her side and pat.  I will try to focus on calming her more in her crib though.  I think I get the idea that you have to start cutting back on the shh/pat so that she is more independent.  I will try that. 

Regarding the sleep resistance, the sleepy cues that I have been using are either rubbing her eyes, yawning, getting fussy, or arching her back when I am reading to her.  I'm not really sure whether the arching of the back is really a sleepy cue or not.  But, I think because of this sleep training, she hasn't been getting that much sleep and therefore, is overtired.  I often have to wake her in the mornings (and naps) to start (stay on track with) the routine as I am trying my hardest to stay on track with the routine.  It's heartbreaking to wake her!  You may be right though, I will try to extend her A time gradually (maybe when we're spending less time getting her to sleep).

How long does it take for your LO to fall asleep once they are in bed?  I guess because I am finding that it takes so long for me to put her to sleep, I am trying to put her in the bed earlier.  ie. If I want her to fall asleep by 10:30am, I try to put her in the bed by 10:00am.  Is that what you do or do you put them in bed  at 10:30am?

When she has the 45 min nap, I am usually in there patting and shushhing her to try and sleep for the full nap time, sometimes I get an extra 10 mins or 30 mins and sometimes just alot of crying and patting.  It hasn't been really consistent as to when she is waking up because it hasn't been consistent as to when I can actually get her to sleep.  The past two days, however, I've had a bit more success in trying to get her to sleep 2 sleep cycles.  I think she's been overtired, and maybe once she catches up, then her A time would be longer?  It's good to know what the generally A time for her age is though.   

Thanks again for all of your advice and suggestions.  It's nice to have this support so you don't feel like you're the only one going through this. 

Charmain

   

[JennŠ]

I think Naps has a sticky about 45 minute naps.  Falling asleep myself at the moment, so no time to find it.     Sounds like you are on the right track, keep it up.  BTW, my 10yo foster niece is Taryn as well.  Good to know she is not the only one.  Keep us updated on your progress!! 

[Lizziebeth]

Hi Charmain, you are doing fab!   Sounds like you are doing all the research and really thinking about what you are doing so that is going to help massively.

Ok, with the shush/pat, if she is frantically crying, you can pick up and pat over your shoulder.  But yes, your general aim is to keep her in the cot if you can.  You will find this gets easier in time.

If she starts up crying in the cot, you can shush/pat til she's calm.  If she cries, pat again til she calms.  You just carry on with this til you get the sense that she's starting to go off and doesn't need your help.  She may or may not be making noise at this minute.  If it sound like a mantra, ie moaning, whining, fussing, nya, nya type noise, you can keep a hand on her back to reassure of your presence til she is completely quiet and going off by herself.   Of course, if she starts up again, you can shush/pat again. 

Re: the arching.  Just want to mention that arching can also be a sign of hunger or pain, ie reflux.   If shes generally happy til you put her in the cot, I think you can be sure she isn't hungry or in pain.  But just wanted to mention it so you can eliminate those things.  Arching can be a sign of trying to settle and overtiredness too.

It sounds like she is genuinely tired at one hour if she's rubbing eyes and fussing.  You are doing the right thing in putting her to bed then.   Think you are right, she probably is overtired and doing some catching up.  Keep doing what you're doing for now and see if A times lengthen naturally.  If not, we can help you do this very gradually without making her overtired again. 

The fact that you are able to get her to sleep more than 45 mins is progress!  Just keep at it, you will break that overtiredness cycle.  Try sneaking in at the 40 minute mark and hold her through the jolts to help her get past 45 mins.  Have a read of this for more info.  It really does work!

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64168.0

[Lizziebeth]

Ps.  Just want to clarify that A time means from the moment she wakes from one nap to the time she actually falls asleep at the next one, so it includes your feed time, nappy change, everything while she's actually awake.

Didn't want you to think I meant 1.5 - 1.75 A time after she's already had 25 mins eating. KWIM?

Lxxx

[Taryns Mom]

Hi Lizziebeth,

Thanks for the encouragement and advice!

I waited a 10-15 minutes longer than usual today before putting her down for her first nap.  The timing coincides with the 1.5 awake time you were talking about!  I just held her and tried to observe to see what she wanted to do.  Also, I thought it would be good as a wind down.  She was arching her back again while I was reading to her, but then when I just held and cuddled her for a bit, she seemed content.  Then, she started to squirm and burrow her face into my shoulder.  So, I started the sleep routine.  She still arched and fussed a bit, but not as much.  And, I put her down to sleep... and she just went off to dreamland by herself!!!! Yay!    I also caught the 45 minute jolt!!  Double Yay!  There is light at the end of this exhausting tunnel! 

However, I find that it typically gets harder as the day wears on.  It's often easier to put her down for the first nap.  And, it's hardest at night.  Last night it took over an hour.  I didn't have to pick her up as much.  She would mantra cry/scream, and when I would check on her and rub her chest, she would start smiling and want to talk to me!  She's a funny little girl!  After over an hour of this, I tried to turn off the night light and I'm not sure if it was the light or pure exhaustion, but she finally went to sleep.

I'm just starting the read about baby's temperament, and I'm thinking that maybe she's a spirited one and just resists sleep cuz she doesn't want to miss anything.  I'll have to keep observing and reading up more on that. 

Re: arching.  She'll generally starts arching after some playtime.  So, it is possible that it could be reflux.  I don't think it hunger cuz she would have just eaten.  I'll try to read up on reflux and what to do.  But, typically, she's fine until I start to swaddle her and especially when I sit with her after the swaddle, then she'll squirm and arch her back. 

I have another question (not sure whether this should be a separate post?).  Pacifiers.  I know that in BW, Tracey says that she would probably not recommend starting the pacifier at 3-4 months.  Is that because the LO would be more prone to being inseparable from it?  My LO really likes sucking/biting my pinky finger (especially) and toys.  She has started to find her fingers, but I think she prefers something chunkier than her tiny fingers?  So, I'm not sure whether to start her on a pacifier or not?  When do they generally want to suck less? 

Thanks again for your help!
Charmain
 

[Taryns Mom]

Hi Jenn,

Thanks for the encouragement as well!  I'll take a look at the 45 min nap sticky when I get a chance.  Cool that your foster niece has the same name!  We picked Taryn because we thought it was unique!

Charmain

[Lizziebeth]

OMG, such great progress already!     Am so glad she went off to sleep all by herself!!    Maybe she did jut need that extra A time before her nap.

It's very common for A times to increase in length as the days goes on.    For example at 4 months, DD would have 1.5 A before the morning nap, 2 hrs A before the afternoon naps and always 2.5hrs A before bedtime. 

Do you think this might be the issue why it took so much longer to get her down for bed and why it was so easy in the morning?

Alternatively many find that it's harder to get down as the day wears on, just cos they get tired and cranky towards bedtime.  You can only look at your LO and make your own judgement.

Personally I wouldn't start the paci at this age.  Having weaned the paci, I can tell you it was not fun. 

But you could think about introducing a lovey or security blanket ... something that she can keep with her in the cot and find herself and isn't dependent on you to replug. You could find something she could chew on, a bit more substantial than her own fingers.  Here is a link:

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64402.0

Keep me posted, you are doing so well.
Lx

PS. Arching and crying after a feed can be signs of reflux, I think.  I would look into it.  Don't know much about reflux so can't tell you anymore.


 

[Taryns Mom]

2nd nap went ok too!  A bit more fussy, but still went down on her own!  I think you are right about the A time.  This A time was around 1.5 as well.  Perhaps that's why she was shouting/screaming before.  She was probably upset that I was putting her to bed when she wasn't sleepy yet.  I'll keep watching to see if I should increase the A time though. 

I have to try and figure out the night more.  Last night, I think she may have been overstimulated and overtired as the in-laws were over to see her and playing with her while it was her catnap time.  Although in general, it's taking about 1-2 hours to put her to sleep at night.  Maybe the bath right before bedtime is too overstimulating as well.  I will try the bath before E time if she's awake or no bath just to see if she will go to sleep easier. 

Ok, I won't start the paci then.  I'll try to look for some toy or teething ring for her to chew on. 
Still have to look into the reflux...

Another question about the EASY schedule.  Do most people stick strictly with the timing?  ie. Right now because I'm training her, I'm trying to stick to the schedule as close as possible and wake her up from naps etc.  Eventually, will she start to get the schedule and everything falls naturally in place?  Or, would I still have to wake her up etc. to follow the schedule?  Or is it personal preference?

Thanks again... it's nice to have someone to talk to about this. 

Charmain

[Lizziebeth]

Hi Charmain

To be honest I don't know!  I think some people stick strictly to their routine if they know it works and their baby is happy on that. 

I personally don't stick to ours that strictly. 

I find that my LO is tired at different times on different days so I go with when I think she's truly tired (not when she's yawning which can be anytime basically!).   

I keep a rough idea of her A times in mind.   So I know she can generally handle 3 hrs A in the morning and when she starts getting cranky and rubbing her face into me at about that A time, then I go and put her down.  See what I mean?  I tend to follow her cues in conjuntion with a rough idea of her A times. 

But today she was up for about almost 4.5 hours in the evening and she was very happy and playing and not cranky so I didn't put her down.  Eventually she got cranky and I put her down and she went straight to sleep.

I'd say in the early days, just watch very very closely, keep an eye on the clock and put to sleep when you think she's tired. But at this age, I shouldn't think she need more than 2.5 hours absolute max in the evening so you could keep that in mind.

HTH

[Lizziebeth]

Hi Charmain just wondering how you are getting on?  Hope all good!

[Taryns Mom]

Hi Lizziebeth,

It's sort of up and down.  Yesterday, not so good.  We went out to run errands etc. and I thought she would sleep in the stroller, but she was wide awake curious about everything, so basically she missed the third nap.  And, because she was overtired and cranky, she wouldn't sleep for the catnap.  But, she slept through the night so that was good.  Today, a bit better, some patting and shushing, but going down for her naps ok. 

I think I am being more conscious of the A time watching and her sleepy cues now.  So, thanks for letting me know about that and the average A time. 

I still have to work on weaning her off of the patting/shushing and try to get her to sleep through the 45 min jolt though.  I find that the shushing in the crib doesn't always work and I end up having to pick her up to shush her.  So, the challenge now is trying not to make this a prop! 

Do you know how long it normally take babies to learn independent sleep?

Charmain

[Lizziebeth]

Hi Charmain

Sorry yesterday wasn't as good.  There's a lot of variation in how long it takes - some maybe a week, others much longer.  Have a read of this:

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64836.0

Personally, I think a lot of it comes down to getting the routine right and then the independent sleep falls into place much more easily. 

So how is your day looking now with your new Awake times?  I suspect it's changed a bit from the one you posted the other day.

Yes, missing 3rd nap would definitely make her more overtired before bed.