Starting EASY today: short nap problem!

[jlsea]

Hello All -

I'm brand new to this board and to all things BW.  Bridget is 4.5 months, and due to several issues (no routine, nursing to sleep, 5-10 min. naps) we have started EASY today (4-hour schedule). 

My question concerns length of naps.  Bridget slept for only 45 min. of her first nap.  We let her be (in her own crib, own room) until she started crying hard, intending to pu/pd for the remainder of naptime.  But when we went into her room, she immediately started smiling & wiggling.  I've read here & in Tracy's book that if she wakes up happy, it might be her natural rhythms at work.  But she started out crying.  My questions:

Do I work with her natural sleep pattern, or try to get her to sleep the full 1.5-2 hours?

A secondary question:

If she's up early and stays awake, do we shorten the cycles (keeping E-A-S, E-A-S, with more frequent feeds & naps) or stick to the original times of the schedule, delaying the next feeding until the scheduled time (S-A-E-A-S, A-E-A-S)?

Bridget is a very happy baby, despite having no schedule at all since birth.  She sleeps thru the night from 8-9 pm until 6-7 am.  Bridget is very good with self-soothing if she wakes during the night.  Our only sleep problems are the shortened naps, and learning to fall asleep (I'm trying to break the "accidental" nursing to sleep pattern).    Her moods are (generally) good - happy, active, smiling - and she eats well (breastfeeding exclusively), although we've had problems with spitting up (not reflux).  We're starting EASY because we've had no routine, and her naps during daytime have ranged from 1 hour to 5 minutes.    The schedule we're starting:

8-8:30  wake & feeding
8:30 - 10  activity & sleep prep
10 - 12  nap
12-12:30  feeding
12:30 - 2  activity & sleep prep
2-4  nap


So far it's working out to be:

8 - 8:30  wake & feeding
8:30 - 10  activity & sleep prep
10 - 10:50  nap
11 - 11:30  feeding
11:30 - 12:45  activity & sleep prep
12:45 - 2:30  nap (35 min. sleep, 50 min pu/pd, 15 min more of sleep)

She just woke while I was writing this: while she was smiling & alert, she was giving strong sleep signals - rubbing eyes & yawning.  I used pu/pd to put her back down, but it took twice as long and her sleep was more fitful than usual.  I don't want to force her to sleep against her natural rhythms, but I also don't want her to be sleep-deprived.  So my question still stands:  do I go with her natural sleep pattern and shorten her cycles, or work her into a 4-hour routine?  Thanks for any advice you can lend -

JLC & Bridget

[clarapist]

Hi there,
Welcome to the boards. I have just a couple of suggestions for you based on my experience with my son, who is 8.5 months and has been taking short naps since 8 weeks. I never tried PU/PD- I only did sh/pat (which turned into just patting). I found that when I patted him on the side of his hip for 5 minutes, if he didn't fall back asleep within 5-10 min, then it wasn't going to happen.  (This was usually the case). I worked myself in to a frenzy patting for up to 45 min, and wasn't a very happy person, so I accepted the short naps. Now, I just wait to see if he'll go back to sleep on his own in 10 min. At that age, Connor was pretty much clockwork with having a 2 hour awake time. I also transitioned to a 4 hour EASY right at 4 months (after 2-3 weeks of stretching it to 3.5 hours)
For your second question, wait until the time to feed. If you feed more often, it's training the baby to take less and need more feeds.  This, you will find, may cause an issue that the feed time and sleep time will clash. When this happened, I fed a few minutes early, and if he started to fall asleep, I'd do a diaper change, and then put him down. As long as you're not perpetuating feeding to sleep, you're ok.
I do admit that I would sometimes go for a walk in the stroller to get him to sleep a little bit if A/S times were going to coincide. I knew that he had the ability to go to sleep by himself, so the stroller ride wouldn't become   a crutch.
Hope this helps. Email or PM me if you need to- clarapist@aol.com
 

Patting was our "magic wand" to teach self soothing in the crib. Also, was giving a lovey.  At first, Connor started using his sleepsack to soothe himself. Now, it's a soft stuffed animal.

[jlsea]

Hello Clara -

Thank you so much for responding!  I was beginning to wonder if I had posted incorrectly somehow...

Your advice is spot-on - I've pretty much figured out each of your points over the last few days.  I've found that Bridget has a 30-min sleep cycle, and if I get into her room & put pressure on her legs (to keep her from flailing awake) I can get her to carry thru another cycle.  If I miss that window, I'm toast.  Yesterday she slept a full two hours; today she barely napped.  Bridget takes about 20 min. to fall back asleep if she wakes up crying, although a few nap times have seen her cry longer & never get back to sleep.  I've been wondering, as you've discovered, if there's a point where it's best to just call it a wash and get her up from the crib.  It starts to seem like I'm using the "cry it out", which I don't like, with the only difference being that I'm standing over her.  We're still trying to establish her awake/asleep cycles, it's been slow-going because of my confusion & inconsistencies over the last few days. 

On the plus side, Bridget's feedings have been going well - and I thank you for your advice on feeding, I think I was falling into the "too often" trap.  I will keep feedings at the scheduled time & see how that works out.

Thanks for your help! 

[* Paula *]

When you go in to your lo to put pressure on her legs is reffered to as Wake to Sleep, this is helping your lo transition into a deeper sleep so that she does not wake up at the jolt.

It might be worth while until you can see what her sleep cycles are going to be to stay in her room once she has fallen asleep and when you see her starting to stir, you can place your hands firmly on her to try and ease her into the second stage of sleep.

Here is some more information on Wake to Sleep.

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64168.0

HTH's

Paula

[clarapist]

You're welcome-- oh and one more thing that took me awhile to realize: once you think you've gotten your LO figured out--- they change and do something different! Oh, and babies have never actually read the BW book, so they don't always know what they are "supposed" to do! 

Jill

[jennjoy]

Hey Sleep Sister!
I've got a 4.5 month old daughter, Josie, and we've been doing the same thing since Monday!  She's been doing the short naps ever since I can remember.  We were already using EASY for the eating side of things, so that's going well.  But she's got to start taking better naps!  Did you read the Sleep Interview with Tracy?  It's in the FAQs under PU/PD, I think.  Maybe one of the other ladies will post the link.   
Yeah, the first day of PU/PD was awful, but the second day showed marked improvement.  Third day was still improving.  And now today I feel like I'm back where I started - but worse!  It's like she realized that she's not getting her paci back and she's not a happy camper!  I can tell you, I had serious thoughts of just pulling her out and saying "forget it, we'll try at the next nap" but as Tracy says in the interview, you've got to see it through.  If you don't, you've been upsetting them for nothing.  So I just keep remembering that.
Also, in the interview, Tracy says that during PU/PD baby should be completely calm before putting back in crib, if she's younger then six months.  So it's really not "crying it out" if you are fully calming down lo before putting back down.  She knows you're there!
It sounds like you've been having a little better luck getting yours to go back to sleep after waking.  Mine is definitely still tired, and although it's been easier to get her calm and her eyes closed, she still wakes about every 3 minutes and I have to shush/pat for anywhere from 15 to 25 minutes before she seems like she's in a deep enough sleep. 
So how is the rest of EASY going for you so far?  Are you trying to put Bridget on a 3.5 or 4 hr schedule?

[jennjoy]

Guess what!  Found the sleep interview all by myself!  Try this link:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=3189.0
I had to copy and paste it into Word, it's pretty long!!

Good luck,
Jen.

[jlsea]

Jen -

Thanks for tracking down that link; i had seen the posting in the boards but didn't remember where.

EASY is currently not going well for us; today B gave only 30 min. per nap, and fussed/cried the rest of the time.  Now we're having trouble getting her to sleep for the night, where before we never had a problem with that (DH is in there now, what a trooper.)  This is the third time she's woken up since we put her down (overtired) at 7:30.  Very frustrating.  EASY is helping us with getting rid of snacking, but extending the nap times with pu/pd has been a disaster the last two days. 

grrrrrrrrrrrrr.....

PS - we're trying to start w/the 4 hr EASY as recommended, but I'm wondering if that's right for B - ??

[jennjoy]

I would start with 3.5, that way she's eating more often like she was before.  Can't remember if you said you nurse her, but I just read somewhere on this board tonight that bf babies need the 3.5 hr schedule cause milk is broken down faster and 4 hrs is too long.  Don't know validity of that, but J is good with 3.5 sched, so that's what we do! 
Do you have bedtime routine?  We finally made one up, cause we'd been doing it willy nilly and had to crack down and be consistent. 
Aren't hubbies great?  Mine puts her to bed as well, so sweet.  Gives me a bit of sanity back!
We had a tough time getting her down tonight as well.  On day four of pu/pd, and am wondering if that's what's doing it.  She's just getting so frustrated, I don't blame her!
I just put up a posting of my own under "Naps" titled "Am I doing this right?  PU/PD to extend naps..." if you want to read all about my drama. 
Gotta go, it's 10:30 which means dreamfeed time!
Best of luck tonight!!!
Jen.

[* Paula *]

Have you thought about using Wake to Sleep? 

[jlsea]

Several replies:

Paula:  I haven't yet researched W2S - I was going into B's room before she woke at the 40 min. mark, to steady her thru the jolts, and she would wake on her own.  Actually, she'd wake up, turn her head, and break into a gigantic smile.  So holding her legs down to help her thru the jolt time is not exactly working.     I'll read up on W2S & see what that's all about.

Jen - will read your posting on naps.  I'm printing out the interview right now, I read the first page & already found some tips that apply to our situation.  We are nursing, and I already decided today to ditch the 4-hr routine and scale back to 3 - 3.5 hour.  I have a feeling that B is just not a long napper.     Our bedtime routine is a bit erratic - since B hasn't napped well the last few days we haven't been able to stick with one, she's reacted differently to bedtime each night.  Last night she woke up 4 times after we put her to bed, something she's NEVER done before.  And today & tomorrow are crazy days, so I think we'll be off-schedule for a bit - I'm going to try to stick to the EASY pattern as much as possible, but won't be able to be "faithful" - we'll see how that goes.

BTW - I LOVE your DD's name!  That's one I was lobbying for, but DH nixed it - said it made him think of Pussycats... what does he know?   

[jennjoy]

We had a rough night, too.  Josie had reflux problems for some unknown reason and had us up several times.  Ugh!!!  I am completely dragging today! 
On the plus side, she's napping right now and I think will make it to 1 1/2 - 2 hrs!  Oh, nevermind, she just woke up. 
I know what you mean by hectic - that's why I had started on a Monday.  I know Tracy says to use the weekends, but we are just too busy on weekends!  But, I have to admit, I had to call hubby at work Monday and ask him to come home as soon as possible.  I'm normally pretty tough against J's crying, but hearing so much of it just about got me crying too! 
Yeah, I think you'll find B will be happier on 3.5 hr. sched.  How big is she?  Ours was 8 1/2 when born and has just weighed in at 16 lbs at 4 month checkup.  I'm getting some great biceps!  Anyway, she eats A LOT!  Doc told us to go ahead and start rice cereal with her.  When do you think you'll start?
I just saw that you're in LA!  I'm down in San Diego!  My best friend lives up in LA, so we go up there every so often.  What part of town are you in?

[jennjoy]

Oh, yeah, and hubby thought of Pussycats, too, but I stuck to my guns!!!