PU/PD on 20 month old - lots of questions

[faraway]

Hi everyone - I'm new here and getting myself in a right muddle reading this board and the one about PU/PD. I posted there first, but now I've read more it seems to be just parents with children under a year posting there. I hope you dont mind me posting in this board too. I'm not sure where I should post really...

I've been doing PU/PD with my daughter for 5 nights now. In reality there hasn't been much picking up, just the occasional put down when she sits or stands up and the rest of the time I'm just putting my hand on her back and saying "its sleepy time" when she gets het up.

She always goes down fine for bedtime and naps, but until 5 nights ago she would have as many as 3 bottles in the night. The first night she screamed blue murder for 2.5hours before going to sleep, the second night she cried and then wanted to play but took 2.5 hours to get her to sleep, the third night was a blissful and easy 20 minutes, the fourth was an hour and a quarter of her tossing and turning and getting frustrated and the fifth night was an hour and a quarter of crying and playing. Each night its only been the one wake up but I'm not sure if we're making any progress.

So my questions are:
- is 20 months too old for PU/PD? How long does it normally take a child of this age to improve
- I've been staying in the room while she goes to sleep as she cries when i go to leave and my book says you should stay there to earn their trust. When do I start leaving a bit earlier? when she's learnt to go off quickly with me there or should I start now so i don't become a prop?
- What do you do if you're back is killing you from being bent over a cot for 2 hours?
- From the times I've detailed, do you think my daughter is improving because it still feels really hard!

I'd be grateful for any answers you have 

Claire x

[Layla]

Hi Claire & welcome to the board! 

Here's a link to sleep training methods for toddlers: - https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63896.0
Here's the link to help you with the choice of methods: - https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0
Both links are from the FAQ's so you might want to have a look at that as well in your own time.

Bottles at night - good that you have made a decision to take them away. You could also replace the milk with water and maybe put a sippy cut in the corner of the cot so if she is thirsty at night she can help herself.

To answer your q's specifically:

is 20 months too old for PU/PD? How long does it normally take a child of this age to improve

Yes, you would just do pd. THat all depends on your consistency and how tired she is. If you could please post your routine as well that would help. If she is overtired, I would suggest an earlier bedtime so that she responds better to sleep training. She might not fight you for as long. Can take up to 2 weeks. Try not to change your methods half way. Stick to 1 method and if its not working, re-assess and try another one in 2 weeks. Again alot depends on how tired she is. If she goes down ok for naps and bedtime that means she knows how to fall asleep. She might be having troubles sleeping throuhg because she has become dependant on the bottle to return back to sleep as well as being overtired.

I've been staying in the room while she goes to sleep as she cries when i go to leave and my book says you should stay there to earn their trust. When do I start leaving a bit earlier? when she's learnt to go off quickly with me there or should I start now so i don't become a prop?

The link I've posted will explain the GW method (which is when you would stay with her and gradually remove yourself).

What do you do if you're back is killing you from being bent over a cot for 2 hours?

Do you think dh could take over and give you a break???

From the times I've detailed, do you think my daughter is improving because it still feels really hard

In general it should take less time for them to nod off but there is regression which can happen even after they started sleeping straight through. Its just a matter again of responding the same way without any props.


hth & let me know how you go
Layla

[faraway]

Thanks for getting back to me Layla - I really appreciate it.

Our routine is that we get up with Nell at about 6.15 (or whenever she wakes), give her a snack and then take her to nursery where she has breakfast at about 8.30. Lunch at 11.30 and then a nap from 12.30 - 1.30. She then has tea at 4.30. I pick her up at 6 and we go back home for a snack and a drink then a pre-bedtime bottle at about 6.45. We then have a set bedtime routine that sees her in bed with the light out by 7.30 -7.45.

I read the FAQ yesterday and that definitely gave me a better idea of what is going on, but I thought that maybe I'd be making some progress by now :-)

Last night I was with her but sitting on the other side of the room for an hour and a half, only going to her 7 or 8 times when she cried or sat up. She hardly cried much at all, which is progress I guess, but she can't seem to get herself off to sleep and she seems to get frustrated with herself. The time it takes for her to get back off to sleep doesn't seem to be decreasing at all.

Meanwhile I'm 3 months pregnant and even though DH and I are taking turns, we're both really tired and feeling a bit defeated, therefore any encouragement gratefully received.

Thanks again

Claire

[Layla]

Claire - congrats on your pregnancy  .

If I can make another suggestion please . Her nap is fairly short (is that right its 1hr or does it start within that 1hr). I would  bring the bedtime forward to maybe 7ish so that she doesn't get into the cycle of overtiredness (which is what I think is causing nightwakings as well). The av sleep is around 13hrs. 11hrs at night and a 2hr nap. Some do well on 1.5hrs but in my honest opinion 1hr is too short. Try earlier bedtime cause that could help her catch up on some sleep and she might even start taking longer naps.

Isabella at 20months was doing 6-6.30am awake; 12-12.30 nap (1.5-2hrs); 7pm bedtime (asleep within approx 20mins)

Post back as often as you like and we're all here to help you get through this.... You'll have your lo sleeping all night sooner than you think

Layla

[faraway]

Hi Layla and thanks yet again.

Nell only manages about an hour or maybe an hour and a half when she's at nursery - there's too much going on and she doesn't sleep long. At weekends when she's with me she'll usually sleep for 2-2.5 hours. It will be interesting to see if she sleeps better at the weekend. Assuming I survive until then!

Night 7 must have been regression, because she was up and crying and then playing for 2.5 hours from 1.30am and then wanted to get up properly at 5.50am.  DH and I are going slightly insane through sleep deprivation.

I'll try and give her a slightly earlier night tonight and see if that helps at all. Somehow I can't see this saga ending anytime soon. :-(

[Layla]

Claire - its hard when they are at daycare and don't get enough rest during the day. I would certainly try an earlier bedtime on those days. Thats all you can do really.

Good to hear she is sleeping well on the weekends.

[faraway]

Hi

I thought I'd leave it a couple of days to see what happened before hassling you again for more advice :-)

Here's the summary of what's happened so far:

 Day 1: 2.5 hours
 Day 2: 2.5 hours
 Day 3: 20 minutes
 Day 4: 1.25 hours
 Day 5: 1.25 hours
 Day 6: 1.5 hours
 Day 7: 2.5 hours
 Day 8: slept through!!
 Day 9: slept through!!
 Day 10: 2.5 hours
 Day 11: 1.5 hours

We've brought her bedtime forward a bit and she had long weekend naps. She isn't crying for her bottles any more, she just gets really cross because she cant get to sleep and tosses and turns and then cries. She also now likes us to stay with her until she is fast asleep and cries if we try and leave the room, despite the fact that she's fine being left at naptimes and at bedtimes - it's just the middle of the night waking.

We think we'll carry on as we are until Friday night when we might try WI/WO (so much easier to upset the applecart at the weekend). Does that sound about right? I can't help but thinking we're doing something wrong as it seems to be taking so much more effort than all the cases I read about.

All advice gratefully received.

Claire x

[Layla]

Claire - sounds like a good plan. Not all toddlers are the same and your lo might take a little longer to sleep train that others. But you haven't really done sleep training??? At the moment you are staying with her when she is up at night until she falls asleep so really she is still dependant on you to be there to fall back asleep. You want to eliminate yourself from the picture so either do GW or wi/wo.

Were those times the duration of naps or how long it took her to fall asleep?

I would do wi/wo if what you are doing now is not working.

Let me know how you go
Layla

[faraway]

Those times were how long it takes to settle her in the middle of the night with PU/PD and then doing a sort of GW. We started staying by the cot the first couple of nights while she screamed blue murder and then we'd put her down and move away from the cot. So far we've made it to the other side of the room, sitting on a spare bed, but when you go to leave the room entirely she cries alot. That's why I figured that WI/WO is the next step.

Saying that, she slept through last night, so I'm a bit of a happy mummy this morning. :-)