Lost the plot

[Cornish smiler]

I only found out about the EASY schedule on the weekend but have been trying to implement it with my 16 week old son, Samuel who I am breast feeding.  My main problem is he will not go down for naps, and if he does it can easily only be 20 mins.  So, he ends up getting more and more tired.  At lunchtime I really felt he needed a sleep so I took him up at 11.30, shush/patted him and got him to sleep in 10 mins.  All good!  Then after just another 10 mins he woke up crying.  Went back up, shush/patted him for a further 10 mins and got another 20 mins out of him and again he woke himself up.  Now I know he was still tired (very red eyes and all puffy) so even though he was 'letting rip' I settled him by walking around and just saying OK, Mummy's here.  He nodded off and I put him down still with my hand on him saying Mummy's here.  This time I stayed with him and lay on the bed.  He slept for 30 mins then really jolted himself awake and started crying.  I took him for a walk and he slept on and off in the pram.  I've just finished feeding him and because he was so tired he fell asleep on my breast, so is now sound asleep in his chair. 

The longest nap he has had is 45 mins since doing this.  At night time he has started to wake up after 3-4 hours for a feed then every 90 mins or so for 'comfort feeding' and I am getting more and more tired.  During the day he has shown he can go 3 hours between feeds.  I haven't posted a schedule as, to be honest, it's all to pot anyhow.  I try to keep him active during A time but he's been so tired he hasn't wanted to do much really.  I put him to bed later (9ish or so) then I don't have to be up so much in the night. 

Looks to me like he's very overtired, but I simply can't get him to sleep more - any ideas anyone?  Feeling a bit down about all this as my 4yo Zoë was sleeping through from 14 weeks, but now I'm just tired ALL the time and trying to look after 2 isn't fun when you're a zombie!!!!

Ali

[Andrea(aka Jersey)]

Ali
Let me start by saying I'm not an expert but it does sound as if he's overtired. So at this point I wold just try to get him to sleep any way you can just so he's not so overtired. So use feeding to sleep or a little walk whatever works. Then once he's feeling a bit better you can start to implement EASY.

Do you swaddle him? I find swaddling my lo keeps him calmer nd makes the jolts less abrupt. Shh/Pat does work but it may take some time for him to get it.When I first started he would only sleep 30 -45 minutes laso. Now he has much better naps and is starting to go to sleep with only a little bit of help. But don't give up. Hang in there it will get better.

HTH
Andrea

[Cornish smiler]

Hi Andrea, I did try swaddling Sam when he was younger but he just didn't like it at all and I think that at 16 weeks he's probably too old for it now.  I know it will get better, but it's just hard when you can see how tired they are but they dig their heels in isn't it.  I'm doing what you suggest and just letting him sleep however he can just til he gets back on track again.  Out of interest, how long have you been following the EASY schedule for?

Thanks!  Ali

[Andrea(aka Jersey)]

I started EASy when he was 2 weeks old but then we got off track between 6-9 weeks because he had refux and couldn't sleep at all. He's now 11 weeks old and things seem to be getting much better. That's not to say they won't get worse again.

Sorry I can't be more help.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do.

Andrea

[*Mona*]

hi Ali

he surely is overtired. can you post your daily routine for us? how long are his activity times, how often does he eat, what do you do with him at his A time?

and IMHO feeding to sleep is not a good idea- at 16 weeks he's clever enough to start associating feeding with falling asleep much too fast you know.

Monika

[Cornish smiler]

Hi Monika, as I said we're just getting started on the routine and as such the timings etc are rather rough (plus I was ill for a day and felt really rough the next so you can wipe out 2 days!).  So, with today as an example:-

E   7.00 - 7.30
A   7.30 - 8.30 (having big sister read to him, playing on playgym, watching big sister)
S   8.30 - 9.30 - looked tired so put him in his cot, he chatted away for a while then started crying so I shush patted him and he eventually nodded off at 9.05 but only slept 25 mins

Zoë (big sister) sat by him then whilst we did other things (washing etc).  He was quite happy in his bumbo

E   9.30 - 10.15
A   
S   10.15 - 12.15 (these both merged as we had to go out so he fell asleep in his car seat which I then clipped into his pram and pushed him around asleep.  He did awake once for 15 mins but  nodded off again

S   12.15 - 1.15 - he stayed asleep once we got home so I left him in his seat

E   1.15 - 1.45
A   1.45 - 3.00   playgym, reading stories, watching Zoë, various other bits and bobs!
S   3.00 - 4.05   took half an hour for him to settle, and then slept for 35 mins

E   4.15 - 4.50
A   4.50 - 6.00   sat in Bumbo, read stories, got passed to Auntie for cuddles.  Did get tired around 5.30 but couldn't get him to settle
S   -

E   6.00 - 6.30   
A   6.30 - 7.40   watched TV with sister, sat in bouncy chair, stories, cuddles etc
S   -

A   7.40 - 8.15   bathtime
E   8.15 - 8.45
S   8.45 - ?

Please note that he went up to bed still awake, and when I put him down his eyes were open.  I kissed him, said what a lovely day we had and it was sleepy time now.  Put his mobile on and left the room and, as of now (9.10) all silent upstairs.

As you can see, it's a bit erratic but only early days.  He is exclusively breast fed and weighs almost 12lb 7.  At night time he wakes around 4 hours after going down and then every 90 mins which is very tiring.  Tonight I'm taking up a bottle of cooled boiled water and will give him that after his first wake up.  Think I will probably dream feed too which I go to bed just to 'tank him up'.

So there you go, not brilliant I'm afraid but the good news is he did sleep more today, even if it wasn't all in his cot - the thing is at least he slept!!!!

I look forward to hearing your advice!!!!

Ali

[*Mona*]

hi

good you have started trying to have him on a decent routine and from what I see I think you're doing good but I also see you need to concentrate more on 3,5 or 4hrs routine for him.

in the morning you put him down after some 1,5hrs of A time and he still stayed awake until just after 9am- so obviously he can stay up for 2 hrs or so, right? he did get overtired with crying etc hence such a short nap BUT I actually think you should focus on 4 or at least 3,5hrs easy.
here is the link to 3-3,5-4hrs transition: https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0

he's old enough, even if he's BFed, to be fed at least every 3,5hrs. if you think he's hungry sooner, he's probably not- it's being tired or bored or maybe just uncomfortable.

DF is a very good idea, just as trying to give him water instead of feeding him at night.

ok, so first maybe focus on 3,5hrs EASY and see if it helps him nap better.
what do you think.

HTH
Monika

[Cornish smiler]

Hi Monika, thanks for getting back to me.  Sam was on 2 hourly feeds up to just a couple of days ago, so at the moment I feel it's just a little bit soon to jump him to 3.5 hrs or 4 EASY.  I've stayed on 3 hrs programme today and, so far, it's gone pretty well (been logging it on the sheet so it's all much more accurate!).  He still isn't sleeping very long BUT at least he is getting 3 sleeps during the day which is a big improvement.

Last night I tried a DF at 10.45 but he was so sound asleep he didn't even know I was doing anything!!  I've never DF before but just stroked his cheek with my finger and tried to see if his mouth would open but no.  Is it worth trying DF again?  So I just put him down and he slept til 1.15.  I then fed him and he gulped it down for 10 mins then slowed the last 5 so I then put him down again.  He woke at 4.30 and I tried him on the bottle of cooled boiled water but yeuch, he DID NOT like it!!!!  He seemed hungry so gave him bf and again he gulped it for 10 mins and then crashed out.  Straight back to sleep but unfortunately he had a fright in his sleep or something and shouted out loud and woke himself up at 5.30.  At that time he's at risk of waking big sister so I popped him in with us and he slept on me until 7.00.  I KNOW I shouldn't have, but I have to have some compromise otherwise we've got a marauding 4 year old!!!!! 

When he goes to sleep I'm being good and not walking him around everywhere like I was, he has a tiny jiggle, then I stand really still holding him close shushing and patting him and when his breathing relaxes I put him down.  Sometimes he cries again so I pick him back up, but sometimes I can just calm him with the shush/pat on the top of his body.  He likes to hold my hand and that's OK but gradually I unpeel myself and it's lovely to see him relaxing.  I've learnt to stay in for 10 mins for the jolts - if I disappear earlier I soon get called back upstairs!!!  I don't mind this as he seems to be good at nighttime and I can just put him into bed with kisses etc, lullaby on and disappear immediately. 

Does this all sound OK to you?  As I said, anything is an improvement to how it was!!!!

Thanks Monika

Ali

[Cornish smiler]

Hi Monika, I've had a rethink as I read the transition information and Sam does seem to be meeting the criteria for needing to step it up (erratic night waking, short naps etc) so am going to give the 3.5 a go from tomorrow (wish me luck!!)

I've kept a log today of what we've been up to and I'd appreciate your opinion please.  It's been very useful writing all the times down and even my husband is referring to them!!!!

7.30   E   
8.05   A (singing, action songs, playing etc)
9.05   S (nodded off at 9.15 after shush/pat but woke after 10 mins.  Resettled him and he fell asleep again until 10.05)

10.30   E
11.00   A (out and about in town)
12.15   S (in car seat in pram until 1.05)

1.45   E
2.15   A (reading, singing, playgym)
3.15   S (husband put him on the bed whilst he slept himself - not snuggled up!)  Sam settled well in his arms

4.05 - Sam woke up and him and my husband sat on the sofa 'talking' until I got in with my daughter at 4.45

4.45   E
5.15   A (out in garden just watching us, interacting and just being interested iykwim)

7.10   E
7.30   A (bouncy chair, playgym, sitting up practice)
8.00   Bath
8.25   E
9.00   S (been in bed for an hour and a quarter now and not a peep from him - his eyes were closed when I put him down but I know any sound and he'd have woken as he wasn't in a deep sleep yet)

I've been pleased with today even though the naps haven't been long but maybe the longer A time from tomorrow on will help with that.  We'll see!!!  As before, I'm trying to feed him more in the evening in the vain hope I might get some more beauty sleep!!!!

Thanks again Monika

Ali

[*Mona*]

hi

not a bad day at all with longer A time you should probably have him nap longer too, just as you say, so good luck with that.

one thing- I'd move his bedtime from 9pm to around 7pm. so you could give him a bath just before 7, feed him at 7:30 or so and put him down just after this feed.

re DF- I think it is worth trying again- it took my dd a couple of days to get used to it but then it was working great until we weaned at about 7,5 months.

good luck and let us know how you're doing

Monika

[Cornish smiler]

thanks Monika, today wasn't so great (not as good as yesterday) but we'll keep trying.  He was a nightmare to settle this afternoon and would not have it at all - get some days like that don't you.  Is there a link you can post re DF as I'm not sure how to do it really.

Thanks!

Ali

[*Mona*]

hi

I hope you'll get it on the right track soon.

here's the link to DF info: https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=54662.msg382717#msg382717

[Cornish smiler]

Thanks Monika!