Ideas to REALLY fix the 5 am wake?

[lunababy]

Hi.  DS is 13 MO.  DD is 3 yrs, 3 MO. DS has always gotten up around at 5am ish (I can remember as far back at 4mo).  About 6 weeks ago we used PD and/or patting to break him of that feed.  Now I have been unsuccessfully using W2S to get him past the 5 am wake.  We do it for 3 days, works for 3, then I see pattern change for 3 and we start over. 

He seems to alert at 5 am to get back to sleep, but not really ready to start the day.  That's why W2S seems so brilliant to me for this.

He shares a room with his sister.  He starts at night in PNP in our room and then I move him once she is asleep.  I am simultaeously tweaking her sleep schedule.  I have shortened her nap and I'm working on moving her bedtime back.  She has had a problem either falling asleep and/or was skipping naps tho she still seems to really need one.  Napping is on track, but she's still taking very long time to fall alseep.

Here is sample of his day...

6 am wake & nurse (assumes W2S worked..which is really a stretch! He really wakes at 5 am)
7:30 breakfast
10:30 Nap (1-1.5 hrs)
Noon lunch
3:30 Nap (1-1.5 hrs)
4:30 Nurse
5:30 dinner
7:30 nurse
8:00 bedtime

Starting last night I moved dinner ahead to 5 to make bedtime at 7:15.  He woke a 5 am.

Any ideas???!

Some thoughts I have had...

*  W2S for several weeks instead of 3 days to break his cycle
*  Start his day at 5 am and shift bedtime
*  Merge his naps
*  Start him in his own crib even tho she may take even long to fall asleep in our room (& move her)
*  WI/WO

He fights PU/PD.  He'll either arch right way which makes PU/PD hard and/or flail in the crib (ie not get to PD position).  I can't get a rhythm going to make it work.  (I was soooooooo successful with PU/PD with my DD. This is really hard for me because I felt prepared before #2 prepared.  And I had been so proud of how hard it was but how effective and worth it. 8 mos in w/DS I have nothing to show!)

On the positive side, DS is excellent about GOING to sleep.  He goes right down for all but that 2nd nap.  Sometimes he fights that one.  He was a jerky baby and has NEVER been good about STAYING asleep. 

The other complication is that I know that we don't allow him as much time to coo in the crib or fuss when they are sleeping in same room.  It really is a different animal when you have two!

I need help making a new plan.  I am open to any ideas and who is sleeping in which room.  I just want to protect everyone's sleep!  I can send my DD to stay a night or 2 at my parents if that would make a difference.

Thanks!!!

[JNate]

well I see a couple of things...

1. any other options besides sleeping in the same room? If not I understand its just the way it is but it definitely complicates things
2. some kids just wake up early...
3. earlier bed time consistently to see if its the problem or not
4. cooing and fussing is something he needs to be able to do....I'm not sure how to address this if he's sharing
5. going to bed in one room and waking up in another MIGHT be an issue.....
6. don't try merging his naps if he's not doing it on his own, I doubt thats the problem and it could create more

My guy was doing the early wakeup thing...he slowly moved it later on his own perhaps with the help of earlier bedtimes, and then when he got sick he actually started sleeping till 8 for a week or so! So sometimes they do things on their own regardless of what we do.....

[mari]

I'd say that going to bed and waking in another room could be an issue, imagine if you were sleeping in bed and then woke up in a different place!
Also, do you think that he could be ready for either 2-1 transition or certainly shortening his am nap and perhaps bringing his pm nap forward and then an earlier bedtime.  8pm is late.
PUPD can be so difficult when they are getting bigger so try just pd.  If you get problems with this I found that just patting the place where her head should be and doing WIWO worked better for us.
Mari

[lunababy]

Thanks.  Tonight is Day 2 of earlier bedtime.  Not a good one.  He is up and playing since 11:30 (it's been an hour already - I can still hear him!)  We also tried introducing him to his bed earlier while DD was still awake to get her used to that adjustment and she was too excited. 

Just about time she fell asleep DS woke up!  My DH slept on floor to keep my DD calm but I think that had something to do with why DS is up. 

We shall see and I'll post more questions then.

I haven't been on boards much.  Is there a thread for mom's doing this stuff for two?  And/or where would be best board to trade support on 2 sharing a room?  Thanks!

[mari]

Perhaps they might have some answers on the 'And then there were two'  Or the multiples board.

What about putting one of them (the better sleeper) in your room whilst you sort the other one out and then work on the other one when you have cracked the first?  (does that make sense? it doesn't to me anymore! sorry!)
Now that I have sleep trained Alex she can sleep just about anywhere so maybe that is the way to go. 

Have you tried an earlier bedtime,  8pm is a little late, certainly try to bring it forward when he transitions to 1 nap.  Maybe this will help the early start.  Perhaps fighting the second nap is a sign that he is ready to make the transition.

[Gippie]

We had this at 13 months as well and it was due in part to a 2-1 transition and it took me SIXTY days - yes 60 to fix it.  I tried all of the quick fixes, early bedtime, w2s...you name it.   In the end I ended up sleeping in her room to see what was up, journa,led it all for 60 days and really - in the end, she was back to the rnormal 6-6:30 wake.  I think it was the process of re-teaching her how to sleep that got her back on track, but lord knows it could have been that the phase she was in had passed......I posted a monster dialouge baout what bwe did right and wrong nad what I feel DID work for us.   

[lunababy]

Gippie - Please send link to your post!  You have patience of a saint.  DS has had stomach flu so we'll start over later this week.

[Gippie]

Gonna go dig it up - it is long....but I tell you....I stuck it out and when I hear people say "they tried" - I say "no - you havent".   As I think about that time, I still cannot believe it was 60 days!   Every now and then, we have "blips" and I swear I have panic attacks the whole next day at work as I anticipate what might be starting...and it usually passes....

I am a working mom and DH is home with DD in the day and he works nights - so I was here alone most nights and the fix it plan was a lone mama thing...for some reason DH never seems to "hear" her as well as I do (sigh, cough gag).

Post back.....

We are nearly 3 months later and still doing a 6am wake, 12:30 - 3:30 nap and a 7:30 bedime.    The nap has moved later and longer..she seems to need it and it does not affect anything else - right now anyway (wink) - tomorrow is another day.

Stacey

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