Sleep tantrums?!

[pixie lee]

Hello.  I have an interesting one for you.....

My daughter is now 22 mths old and has always had a baby whisperer routine for bedtime.  She slept 7 till from 8 weeks until teething began.  Sleep was still ok with the odd night unsettled due to teeth or colds.
Toddlerhood has brought up a bit of a nightmare it seems though.
When Izzy began to have nightmares and night terrors we were prepared and in control- we knew why she had them and how to deal with them.  Although they happened  a fair amount they were easy to sort anad she would not wake up after this.  There have been a lot of developmental changes for Izzy recently- tantrums ( only a few so far in the day - once again feel happy with how we are dealing with this, understand them etc), speech- big changes here and physical- a once shrinking violet physically is now swinging off every available bar in the park!  This all points to sleep issues and we were more than ready to accept this but the tantrums.......
She had begun to get nightmares and terrors on a regular basis but never got more than a settling cuddle for the nightmare and always went back off to sleep almost instantly when she was laid and would not wake again.

Firstly, Izzy never gets demands on the night- we have never read her 'one more story' given her milk after sleep, etc.  The first time she woke and began to have a tantrum was over a blanket.  Not expecting night tantrums we first assumed she must be hot as she refused to put her blanket on after she had laid down again in her cot.  Then she wanted it on.  Then straight off.  This went on a little while before we realised she just wanted control.  So we said night time and left for  a min when she refused again to hav the blanket on.  Full paddy ensued.  Went back in to make sure she was safe whilst having it.  When calmed asked her to lay down ( the old PUPD we had used a long time ago worked  as she did as she was told after just 3 gentle lay downs by us)- eventually asked for the blanket and pulled it up and went to sleep - this was after 3 hrs!.  Every night following we have this:  After story time when she is laid down she will ask for a selection of things- milk, book, biscuit even!  She gets none of these- puts up very little fight then goes to sleep as usual - on her own.  Around 12 or/ and 2am she will wake moaning.  Left she will stop after less than a minute.  10 mins later it will happen again.  And again.  In the past this told me something was stopping her sleeping- teeth pain or cold, etc.  The crying goes to a 'i need you' one.  When one of us goes in to check there is apparently nothing really wrong.
Izzy disagrees- she will show you the foot that has no socks on ( ok, we let her do this when she grew out of gro bags to keep her warm in case the blanket s came off in the early days off learnig to cope with them)  you put it on say night night and she will sit and take it off again in front of you!  Then she asks for milk, book, etc.  She chooses one thing and persists.  Now i can understand this if we had ever given in but this has never happened!  She is offered water in case of thirst and pushes it away whilst beginning her tantrum if she has asked for milk.  She will thrash around when you say no biscuit, bedtime.  The only attention she gets whilst having a tantrum is regular visits back to the bedroom to say night time, lie down when she is calm enough to do so.  They last for a long time and she will often wake again and repeat this.  I can understand this is a phase but to happen every night for about 2 weeks when she really does not need what she is asking for ( she knows the sign for food and has been given cerreal in the past in growth spurts and knows the sign for medicine and always asks when her teeth hurt an settles immediatley after) and never gets it seems bizzare.  I know she is only young but she really does pick things up quickly in the day and often will not repeat an undesired action after 3 goes ( the norm for a toddler I understand).  Any ideas?

[Layla]

So, is she waking at night and asking for things as well as when she is going to bed?

What does her day look like?

[pixie lee]

Hello there-
Her day formed from the baby whisperer guide and has changed to her needs as she got older-

6.30 ish wake- remains happily in cot singing/ playing until
7am up and breakfast/ morning routine.
7.30am ( Mon and Tues nursery) Weds - Grandmas
Thurs:  Helps me clean the house am ( enjoys this - especially mopping the floors!)
Park - has morning snack and drink here around 10am.
12ish- Lunch
Local shopping - takes her push a long bike- no probs with the shops as she knows everyone and they have a good chat with her.
Between 1.30 and 2- offered a nap ( she occasionally takes this now but has pretty much dropped it- there has been no correlation between no nap days and nap days with this new night occurances- she has been in the process of dropping her nap for over a month now).
Until tea time- Muzzy French DVD ( 1/2 hr) and playtime with mummy- garden, toys, educational bits too  ( shapes, colours, etc).
4pm ish Tea time
Until 6pm ( Daddy comes home)- sometimes pop down to the park, other times reading a book, etc- dependent on how she is feeling.
6pm Daddy time- initially lots of play then
6.30pm supper and milk time then reading/ quiet play- wind down time
6.45ish- bath and bedtime
In bed for 7.15pm- asleep usually about 7.30pm or earlier.

FRidays:
As Thurs except:
9am- 11am- toddler group
3-5- vist friends or they come to play here ( usually just one child).


We do do an awful lot in a day physically - she will go on regular trips to farms, etc in the school holidays and I often wonder about the effects as she will have lots to rememeber in dreams.

She wakes in the night moaning- goes back to sleep, repeats about 10mins later.  This can happen up to 4 times then she will do an 'I need you cry'.  When you get there she is fine, doesn't need you and it is then will begin to ask for something she does not need- smiling at forst then building into a tantrum when we say no.
Hope this helps. X

[Layla]

Just a couple of things...

I think she is waay too young to be giving up a nap, honestly I do. In fact I believe by the time her nap starts, she is probably overtired and can't settle for a long nap. Try to offer her a nap no later than 12.30pm, let her sleep for 1.5-2hrs and then bedtime 7ish. Nightwakings can and mostly are from overtiredness and I think this is what's occuring here. We ALL wake up at night, turn over, maybe go to the loo, have some water, look at the clock and then return back to sleep. Babies/toddlers also wake in between cycles but alot of the times they cannot return back to sleep because they are either overtired or are in pain from teething, or have been used to a prop to get to sleep, etc.....

I can see you have a very busy schedule but if possible try and rearrange things a little so that you are back at home for lunch about 11ish, and then maybe do a longer windown routine so that she can settle better for the nap (start NO later than 12.30pm). The longer windown should help her relax for a nap if she's been busy all morning.

I think its great that she has some daddy time & there is nothing wrong with keeping her stimulated and allow her to have lots of fun, as long as before nap and bedtime things are more or less calm.

I think her "tantrums" are largely due to overtiredness. The av awake times for a toddler is 5.5-6hrs (mine is doing 6hrs before nap now and any later, trust me she suffers at night - and so do I  ). So you want her to sleep about 10.5-11hrs at night and have a 1.5-2hr nap during the day (13hrs in total). If there are days where you can't get a nap in, bring the bedtime forward to 6.30pm (again to avoid overtiredness). Most toddlers start giving up naps close to 3.

hth
Layla

[**Clare**]

It could well be that shes overtired, I cant remember if I wrote this on your other post but if Harvey doesnt have a good hour and a half nap (usually 2 - 2 and a half hours) he wakes at night, guarenteed!! If hes over tired he just cant seem to wind down.  Id take Layla's idvice and give it a go! Even if you can get her down for half an hour if thats all she'll have then its better than nothing! She does seem very young to be dropping her nap but each child is different! Ive worked in a nursery/day care for all my working life.  I was based in the 1 - 2 year old room and Ive never come across a child under 2 who doesnt have at least a short nap! But day care is very different to being at home and like I said every child is different! But you know her best so have a think about it! I know a lot of parents, like me, until I came here think that if they dont sleep in the day then they'll be more tired at bedtime and will sleep better and longer!! Its the complete opposite for me!!

Hope this is of some help   

Clare xx

[pixie lee]

That is wonderful advice - thankyou.  I assumed she was just ready to drop her nap.  I have actually noticed recently that she wakes in half hour slots for her afternoon nap- she has never done this before but I assume it is because she went through the stage of no naps/ nap.  She has always resisted sleep in the day, I got used to this and leave her to get to sleep by herself- it takes her a good 15mins even in the car!  I will certainly change my routine as it is always flexible.  What I have decided to do is keep to the nursery times of 11.30 dinner and sleep 12.30ish.  This changed because of family commitments and when nanny looks after her.  I shall have to bite the bullet and have a chat with nanny ( the mother-in-law\0 to suggest an earlier lunch and nap. 
I'll let you know how I get on. X

[pixie lee]

P.S- mind you, she has only ever once not had her sleep at the nursery but the nights are still no different.  I will have a go and see if it helps. X

[Layla]

Waking up in 30min slots of overtired. She is fairly young to be giving up naps and I would think she's been fighting them or not sleeping long enough because she would have been obertired by nap time.

Good luck & keep me posted!!! I really think a good nap will help
 

[pixie lee]

Hello there.  Interesting results.  Went back to our old routine of lunch at 11.30 adn she went down without much fuss at 12.30 and slept soundly for 2 hrs.  I felt much happier about this and she seemed a lot better too.  She did wake several times in the night but I had notided that she did not want her teeth brushing- she usually loves this and only does not want it when she is teething.  Back molars have beeen rising and falling for some time now so I put the restlessness down to that. 
Tried the routine again today with plenty of wind down before nap.  She went down fine again (laid down but not asleep) at the same time- seemed ready but is currently singing to all her toys in her room and has been for the past 20 mins since I left her!  This was when I started to assume she did not need her sleep a while back where we had an hour of singing and talking ( quite happily) and absoloutely no interest in sleeping!
Will see how it goes.  Husband and all other family members are going away ( the timing is lousy) for a week soon.  Dreading it as will still be working and have no support if she goes back to difficult nights.  Ah well, I will continue witht he old routine and work around these 'awake' days.
Incidently, she is rarely given sugary foods - ususally at parties or special occs only and has a great appetite for fruit and veg so I know her diet is not affecting her sleep. x

[Layla]

Keep trying for a nap around noon. Some toddlers go through a no-nap phase but that is not to say she is givign the, up forever. At least she is having some quiet time. I would leave her there and if she's not going to sleep then put her to bed for the night earlier as I mentioned before.

Husband and all other family members are going away ( the timing is lousy) for a week soon.  Dreading it as will still be working and have no support if she goes back to difficult nights.  Ah well, I will continue witht he old routine and work around these 'awake' days.

I'll be here for support 

It could also be that she is teething. Isabe;;a also didn't want her teeth brushed when her molara and eye teeth were coming through. Do you give her anything for the pain at all?

[pixie lee]

Hi there.  Thankyou for the advice so far.  When she is teething she will sign for medicine and I use medised as it is the only one that seems to sort the pain out.  We use it as little as poss as I hate giving her dose after dose. 
I know Izzy well enough to know it is not just teething causing this as she behaves much differently when teething. It is still an enigma but a friend of mine mentioned her little boy did the same around the same time and it turned out he needed grommits.  He showed no signs of ear ache ( no pulling at ears etc).  I am going to get her checked out this Thurs - first day not at work.  I know something is preventing her from sleeping as the moan cries have always been for when she was in pain, too hot or too cold.  Izzy signs really well and has always been able to let me know straight away what the problem was.  We used to be able to go in if there was an occasional prob, she would sign, give the needed treatment and she would go straight back to sleep with no fuss.  She has been really clingy -occasionally when dropped off at nursery recently too.  If we had moved house, nursey, new baby this is the kind of behaviour I would have expected.  Something is eating at her, I think I just need to use a process of elimination to work it out.  We have stuck to the routine solidly so far and will continue to do so- it is what I am used to and feel more confident that at least that bit is right!  She woke 8 times last night, the last time was louder so dad went in to settle her- she was upset initially but lay in the cot no probs as he patted her on the back.  Within a short time she was settled and he left.  She made brief moaning noises once or twice a while after.  It is not so bad when I don't have to get up- I stay in semi-awake state but am still very tired and finding my teaching job harder and harder to do!  Oh well, only 7 weeks till half term and there will be an answer to this one.  Whether or not I find it before the problem sorts itself out or not is the question! Love to you and yours

[pixie lee]

Hello there.  Just wanted to bring you up to date.  Firstly- my many heartfelt thanks.  You spotted the mistake and it was relatively easy to recitfy.
I stuck to my guns with the routine and within a week from the last post Izzy was back sleeping through and was the old, delightful child again in the day.  So simple but so crucial.
I have been taught my lesson.  My girl loves and needs her routine.  I should have researched before dropping her sleep in the afternoon and then I would have known this was very unusual. 
Life has returned back to how it was, my daughter is much MUCH happier and I feel like a good mum again! 
Well done problem solving team and thanks once again!!!!!

[pixie lee]

Oh, and I have kept a more careful eye oin her days now.  The husband and I are very active people but I fell into the trap of assuming Izzy would like that too.  I now keep to one big event a day and have a lot more 'quieter' time with her- reading, jigsaws etc.  She seems to appreciate this.  I have to remind myself she is only a little one!

[Layla]

Thats great news!

I am happy things have improved & she is sleeping better again