Author Topic: I think i'm drying up!  (Read 1414 times)

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Offline Rachelmac

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I think i'm drying up!
« on: June 19, 2007, 13:09:50 pm »
Hello ladies,
I'm just looking for some advice on a low supply of milk. Just to fill you in, I posted a few weeks ago when my LO was having a growth spurt (he is 14 weeks today and weighs approx 14.5lbs). He is back to his 3 hourly routine again after I fed him on demand for about a week. My supply did get better but unfortunately it seems to have reduced again and he seems unsatisfied at the end on his feeds - especially from the afternoon into the evening when I feel  my breasts are empty.

In the begining I had an overabundant milk supply so I think we are both finding this hard. When he gets agitated and pulls at my nipple and flays about I let him have the other breast but then he leaves both empty for the next feed. He does not continue to suckle when my breasts are empty which in turn won't be stimulating them to increase the supply.  :-\ I am supplementing his 6pm feed with formula because there just isn't enough there for him, but I'm worried that this will have a knock on effect to my supply.  He also wakes at 2:30 in the morning which he had stopped doing since being about 8 weeks old.

I have started taking Fenugreek yesterday so I'm really hoping this will help.
I know RachelC had a similar experience as I have read the post from a few years back, so I would be great to hear from you Rachel. I feel like this time next month i'll be givimg him formula exclusively if things don't change.

Offline Samuel's mum

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Re: I think i'm drying up!
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2007, 15:06:38 pm »
First off - you are at the stage when judging whether your breasts feel 'full' or 'empty' is no longer a reliable guide. For most women at some point around the 3-4 month mark they find their breast 'fullness' subsides (sometimes earlier). This is partly because the first few weeks of fullness are actually a lot to do with other kinds of fluids apart from milk (lymph and blood surrounding the newly developing milk production cells) and also partly because the breasts have yet to adjust to your baby's needs. Infact the changes that naturally happen around this time (feeds getting shorter due to efficiency, babies being more distracted at the breast, breasts feeling softer, no longer feeling letdown) have led many many women to mistakenly doubt their supply and begin supplementing - which is what led to this FAQ:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=65905.0

Babies at this age sometimes get distractible and fussy during feeds (pulling nipple and thrashing about - yup, sounds familiar) and it doesn't have to mean a supply problem. It's because the world is an interesting place and they want to get back to it.
http://www.kellymom.com/babyconcerns/distractible-baby.html
I wouldn't judge his behaviour at the end of feed but what is his behaviour like 20 minutes later, an hour later - is he asking for the breast again and showing clear hungry cues? Or after he's off the breast does he seem to settle and then waits happily until the next 3hr routine feed?
A waking at a very specific time (e.g. always 2.30) Tracy explained is usually not an indication of hunger (although once he's awake he may fancy some). Hunger wakings tend to happen within a window of perhaps an hour or 1.5hr or even longer and they vary. A very specific wake up time is usually for another reason so you could try using wake-to-sleep e.g. go in before 2.30 and gently rouse him but do not wake him up fully. This should disrupt his sleep cycle enough to hopefully break a pattern.

OK having said all that let's assume your supply is a problem:
perhaps he's not lasting his usual intervals, he shows clear hunger signs well before a usual feed time, he is having weight gain issues, he may not be getting sufficient wet nappies, he is not swallowing well for steady periods and struggles to get a letdown.

If that's the case then you know it's about supply and demand so yes, formula does make a bit of a difference. Try and make sure you've completely exhausted the breast first - breast compression, switching sides and then wait a few minutes before supplementing to see if he settles or still shows hunger cues (and when you do make supplement sure it's a minimum amount not a massive bottle). But do remember because of the way bottle flows and milk pools in the mouth a bf baby WILL take more oz and it doesn't mean they are even slightly hungry. If you think about it once someone brings a bottle to your lips the effort of saying 'no thanks' and trying to NOT feed is actually considerably greater than the effort of just letting it happen and taking the milk.
If he was desperately hungry I'd expect him to try and keep going on your breasts as a small trickle of milk continues (as milk production happens all the time during a feed. Breasts are never completely empty) so the fact that he's not interested says something.
If you do feel that your breasts need more stimulation then get pumping - perhaps after he's gone to bed to compensate for any formula.
Fenugreek can take up to 72 hours before you see a difference so be patient (3 capsules, 3 times a day).
Make sure you are drinking plenty. Not drinking enough during the day is a common cause of supply seeming to taper off as the day goes on. Letdown sometimes slows as the day goes on too and this is natural - a bit of breast compression might help if he seems frustrated.

That's my 2 cents and I'll let Rachel add from her personal experience (you must have been really searching the archives!).

« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 15:10:10 pm by Samuel's mum »
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Offline Rachelmac

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Re: I think i'm drying up!
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2007, 15:54:42 pm »
Thanks a lot for all that Emma. What you said makes a lot of sense.

He does eventually settle after a feed. He normally cries a bit first then I wind him and he seems OK within a few minutes - so Yes, that would indicate that can't be all that hungry. I think he still manages to go his 3 hours too although there is the odd occassion through the night when he only goes for about 2.5 hours. I did think he was waking at 2:30 out of habit and tried to give him a paci to send him back to sleep as this has worked in the past. It has not worked this time though and when I feed him he seems very hungry. I will try the wake to sleep method and see if it helps as I am sure he does not need to feed at this time (he is having 7 feeds in 24 hours).  His nappies are only full of poo about once in 30 hours- I heard this is not a problem though - he seems to be still peeing normally. I will keep an eye on his weight.

I don't normally offer the bottle at the end of feeding, I have been giving him a 6oz feed of formula at 6pm to give my breasts a chance to fill up for the next night time feed at 8pm.

I will try pumping after his last feed. How long should I do this for? Do I still pump if there is nothing coming out?

Can using a paci have a negative effect on my supply too?

Offline Samuel's mum

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Re: I think i'm drying up!
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2007, 18:37:15 pm »
Yes, don't pay any attention to poo at this age.

Pumping after the last feed - as long as you fancy basically - switch pumping is good for increasing supply: so 5 mins one side, 5 the other, 3 mins, 3 mins, 2 mins, 2mins. And keep going if nothing comes out.

Quote (selected)
I don't normally offer the bottle at the end of feeding, I have been giving him a 6oz feed of formula at 6pm to give my breasts a chance to fill up for the next night time feed at 8pm.

OK. I need to say this in the nicest way possible. This isn't how it works. If your breasts were accustomed to a full feed at 6pm and 8pm and that had been demanded of them over a period of time - they would adjust to that. Infact empty breasts make more milk and send signals to make more milk. Fuller breasts and breasts that are left full send signals that milk is not needed and supply gets reduced. These articles have an outline of why full breasts mean less milk production overall and how breasts are not containers that need to refill:
http://www.kellymom.com/bf/supply/milkproduction.html
http://www.lalecheleague.org/llleaderweb/LV/LVJunJul01p54.html
I know this might seem odd to take on board but it's the way it works - emptying breasts means a boost if there are any supply issues. Supply and demand is the key phrase here not 'refilling time'. Plus giving him that much formula at 6pm is likely to mean he is less hungry at 8pm (as formula/ cows milk proteins take longer to digest) and taking less from the breast than he would otherwise so that again could mean less stimulation for your supply.
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Offline Samuel's mum

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Re: I think i'm drying up!
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2007, 18:53:59 pm »
Didn't mention paci. There's some logic in the theory that a baby may want to spend more time at the breast (and therefore provide more breast stimulation) if they don't have a paci. At his age he will have gone beyond the point where he might affect his latch. I think if it's not being used excessively (like you are literally taking it out to do every feed) it's probably not a problem.

From what you are describing of his behaviour after a feed it doesn't sound like he's hungry. As for night hunger, babies that go through a distractible phase do sometimes try and make up for it at night - but again you wouldn't expect that at a precise time.
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Offline evanskimberley

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Re: I think i'm drying up!
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2007, 22:27:32 pm »
Just wanted to pop on and say come ove to the birth clubs in the EASY forum and join our March/April 2007 group, there are lots of us breastfeeding and getting a lot of support from each other going through the same things at the same times.
Kxx
Kimberley
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Offline Rachelmac

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Re: I think i'm drying up!
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2007, 12:48:57 pm »
Thanks Emma, the links made a lot of sense. I think he may be getting frustrated with my letdown perhaps rather than me having run out of milk.
I stopped the supplement feed in the evening and have been taking fenugreek for about a week. It seems to be helping although the night time feeds are confusing my supply as sometimes he goes for 8 hours for a few nights - and so my supply adjusts. The he will start waking at 2am again  :-\  not sure why he is doing this but i'm blaming the hot weather.
Hopefully he will sort himself out soon though.

Offline Samuel's mum

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Re: I think i'm drying up!
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2007, 15:50:56 pm »
Sounds like things are going well. :)
Those random wakings are sent to keep us on our toes! Your supply should still allow for a bit of flexibility. If it's really hot he may just want a 'drink' rather than a feed (so a quick bit of foremilk).
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