help? ds1 needs me to sleep, but newborn keeps interupiting the process!

[Luckylisa78]

I need some advice on how best to teach my 14mth old to sleep independantley.
He always gets cuddled in with a bottle or a dummy to go to sleep. problem is Newborn keeps waking up and disturbing the process.  DS 1 is an Angel/textbook and DS2 is a touchy with I suspect a touch of reflux. he is very unsettled. which makes it very hard to get DS1 fully asleep before DS2 starts crying. and once DS2 starts crying DS1 won't go to sleep.  DS1 is a very light sleeper.

I am having a nightmare three times a day and during the night with naps (for both of them, try getting a touchy to sleep with a toddler crashing around!) my main worry is DS1 who has started clinging on to me when we are going through the sleep process and his brother starts to cry as he knows he is going to be put in his cot so I can deal with his brother. (no point staying as DS1 won't sleep with DS2 Crying)

the other night i had DS1 bathed and dressed, nearly asleep and DS2 started to cry. it took that long to settle DS2 (an hour) that i had to put him down and leave him crying to go back through to DS1 who was also crying hard and reassure him that i would be back soon.  I told him he had to be a clever boy and go to sleep. I heard DS1 babbling happily for a while and it went quite. when i got back through to him, he was asleep but he was holding on quite high up to the bar of his cot. Like he had been playing but got exhausted waiting and crashed out.

You have no idea how much this upset me.

On top of this DS1 wakes when DS2 wakes in the night and needs resttled. DS1 has always taken a midnight bottle and resettled during the night.. However I am finding myself heading into more Accidental parenting as what I have done the last two nights is feed DS1 before he asks for it. i.e just before DS2 is due to wake that way DS1 sleeps through DS2 feed. Yes I have gone back to dreamfeeding at 14 months.  No good but it prevents DS1 being left crying.

So how do I fix this mess?  I am tempted to do walk in walk out , as this is kinda what I am been forced to do, but on a much worse scale, but it says best not to do if DS experiencing separation anxiety. He isn’t yet, only developing the clinging on when I go and leave him half way through going to sleep.  It must be so hard for him. I feel terrible.  I never ever wanted to sleep train him, hes just my baby but I think it will be easier on him if I do and I don’t know how long I can go on like this. 

Any advice welcome

[momofclaire]

Could you post his (ds1) routine?
At bedtime do you cuddle or feed him to sleep everynight?
Do the boys sleep in the same room?

You probably are going to have to do a bit of sleep training to get rid of props.  I know it sounds harsh but sleep training can be done gently and really is like giving a gift to the child and yourself.  Post back and I will try to help you with a plan of action. Hang in there, you obviously have your hands full with a toddler and a newborn.  How old is the new one? 
Hugs.
Myia

[Luckylisa78]

Thanks Myia here is our rough routine

6.30 am wake up (although we have been struggling with early wakeness at 5.50 am recently)
7.30 breakfast
9.30 nap 1 hour - 1.5 hours bottle sometimes, just alittle drop
10.30-11.00 awake
11.30 - 12.00 lunch
2.00/2.30 nap 1 hour - bottle every time, just a little drop. unless fallen asleep in car
3.30 awake
4.30 - 5.00 dinner
6.30 bath/bottle/bed
12.00am bottle
2.00am dummy search
4.00am dummy search

I do cuddle him to sleep every time.  most of the time with a bottle and dummies.
DS2 sleeps in room next door. idea was he wouldn't disturb ds1 there but he does.
ds2 is 4 weeks old.
thanks

[momofclaire]

Well, lets start with the basics.  You do have a prop dependent little boy.  It seems as if he hasn't learned how to go to sleep without the bottle, a paci or a cuddle.      It was probably nice when you had the time to cuddle and didn't have to divide and conquer but now you have a bit of a problem.
I am going to guess that the early wakes are due to overtiredness. He is getting almost enough sleep during the day but the waking can be causing him to not be as rested in the morning as he should be.
I think the first thing to do is to get him on an EASY routine that doesn't involve feeding to sleep.  This might be a bit tough as he has been taught that he gets food before naps and bedtime.  Are you certain that he still needs 2 naps?  Does he fight going down for either of them?  To end the feed/sleep association I would start a windown routine.  I would make sure it was something I could do every day.  You can do a long windown if he needs more time to relax but he should be put into his crib awake.  If he cries I would do pd.  I know you mentioned not wanting to sleep train but pd will be the fasted method to end his dependency on the bottle. 

To block out noise I would buy a small fan to use in the babys room.  We have a fan that makes a good bit of noise but it seems to really block out noise from the rest of the house.  You can also arrange the rooms so that the beds aren't on the same wall. 
I hope this helps.  Post back and I will try to really help you nail down a plan.  Can someone help you at night with the newborn as you work on sleep training ds1?

[Luckylisa78]

Thanks for the reply.  Having sepent a bit more time thinking about it I think the early wakenings are due to a slightly earlier bedtime. DS2 seems more settled about six, so instead of DS1 getting bathed between 6.30 and 7.00, sometimes he is in the bath at 6.15 (silly mommy) so I guess that would be how to fix that!
I am not certain he still need two naps.  I know some days he definatley needs a morning nap, other days its just my habit to put him down (those are the days we use a bottle)  to be honest I don't think the bottle is a huge issue, as most of the time he leaves most of it, and I can get him to sleep without it if he is tired no problem just a dummy and a cuddle.  however, if he isnt tired i can't get him to sleep without it and that is when he drinks more of it. - yes I know how ridiculus this sounds. basically i am using the bottle in those situations to wind him down.

funny how stupid all this sounds when you analyse it, it has just become my habit, and maybe not his.

I started having issues getting him down for naps a month or so ago, i I did start using a wind down routine, reading his books for ten mins and found that easier, will have to try and start using that again providing DS2 obliges.

Hubby won't help at night as he works 12hrs a day 7 days a week most of the time., which is why i am having such a hard time at bedtime as he is never home for bed time. so it is all down to me. I worry about being able to be consistent with sleep training having the two, but it can not be any worse then the lessons he is learning at the moment. i..e that i go away to deal with his brother, he crys i come back, then eventually cuddle him in.

so far I think I will:
a) only put him down when he is actually tired 
b) try to be consistent with a windown routine
c) eliminate the bottle at nap times immediatley (maybe even during the night too? or totally?)
d) when i do start sleep training make sure he is shattered so the first few nights he should find it easier to sleep? - i know thatmight mean he is overtired but usually when i put him in his cot awake he sees it as a game and gets all hyped up and starts bouncing up and down (why bother with the windown eh)

when you say pd. is that just the put down part of PU/PD? Sorry been a while since I read the books.

Thanks

[momofclaire]

Yes, pd is just the put down part of pu/pd.  This is generally because the child will be standing. 
If you think he can handle one nap you may want to try it and see.  What I would do is attempt a morning nap for a week but wake him at 30-45 min.  If he really refuses one day put him to bed roughly 5-6 hours after he wakes for the day. (watch his cues for the right A time)  Be certain to get him in bed early so that you avoid overtiredness. 
Claires routine at 14 months was
7:00 wake
11:45 nap (3 hours)
7:00 bedtime

She has always not been able to handle as much A time before her nap as she can before bed.  Some children are the other way around. 
I really would try to stop using the bottle to wind him down.
Do you think the paci is part of the nightwaking problem?  Are you interested in weaning it?  If you aren't maybe you should put a few in his bed so he can more easily find them.
As far as sleep training.  Is there anyone who would be able to come over and hang out with the little one for an hour each night while you worked with ds1? Sleep training is sometimes tough. I am sorry that your hubby isn't around at night to help.