A couple more questions...

[woopster]

I saw a bf counsellor today.  Sadly Daniel slept through her visit and nothing would wake him.  My midwife came round this afternoon and between us we managed to get him latched on, but it took about 15 mins to do so.  He fed great though - latched on for about 30 mins and was sucking really well.
My midwife suggested I didn't pump anymore and didn't offer him a bottle. She said that now he has latched on once, it should only take a couple more goes and he should get it.
She left and he came off the breast and I tried him on the other side. He was interested and really rooted for it but I couldn't get him to latch on. In the end I gave him a bottle of EBM as he was getting hysterical. He took 60ml.

Am I doing wrong by giving him a bottle?  I offer him the breast before every feed and try to get him on, but I'm really concious of stressing him out.

Thank you. 

[Samuel's mum]

It sounds like you had a really good feed there - Well done!
You have to follow your instincts at the end of the day. You are right that you don't want him to get stressed out but in truth I can kind of see where she's coming from. He needs to learn that the breast is where the milk is and bottle feeding isn't helping him to develop his latching skills. I would maybe consider giving him milk another way if you really need to - syringe feeding or cup feeding.

Latching takes time and several efforts for most people. What is he actually doing? Is he not opening wide enough? You could try and squeeze a bit of milk out and try and give him the message there is something worthwhile for him if he gets a latch. Lots of skin to skin time and perhaps try and hold off on the bottles BUT if you need to give him ebm then you should do it.

15 minutes is a long time to try and get him latched and obviously if he's hungry he's going to get worked up. You could maybe consider giving him an oz with syringe part way through the process if you feel you are starting to panic and considering giving the bottle to give yourself a bit more breathing space. And finish by trickling some on your nipple so he'll smell it and be more motivated to latch on to continue the feed.
Would the bf counsellor consider coming back?

[donna_issabella]

HUGS, Wendy, as as a mom I appreciate and understand you wanting to BF, but as a HCP I again understand the fear of him not needing to be stressed out at the moment. Sigh, why can't life be easy?

Thinking of you and D and the family! I am sure Emma will have BF ideas and suggestions   . Good luck though with balancing it all.

[yaya]

hugs wendy, no advice here just some CHEERINFG YOU both on GOOOOOO daniel and mummy!
what do you try to get him latched on? when I was at the hospital with T and he wouldnt lacth on, the midwife would hold his head with her hand and rub his head to get him to relax and stop moving and jerking his head. I then did this with both LOs. have u tried getting someone to help? so holding him while u fiddle about with babe and nipple?
sorry just throwing ideas ur way prob no use at all!

[yaya]

agree with stacy re: th walking, i did this too when T was hysterical!

[woopster]

Hi girls,  He does open his mouth quite wide, and will also take my boob in his mouth but once it's in there he doesn't know what to do with it.  Both the midwife and the L/C said my positioning was good. we tried a variety of holds and I also expressed a bit of milk onto the nipple just before he took the breast and he knew what it was!
I tried again this evening but we went through the same thing - he roots for it, opens wide but doesn't seem to be able to grasp the fact that if he closed his mouth he could feed, although he has bitten me a couple of times!  OUCH!

The l/c only works 2 days a week, and won't be back on til Tuesday which is when the midwife is coming back.

I ended up giving him a bottle. I touched his mouth with the teat and he turned his head and opened his mouth really wide and started sucking straight away 

Thanks for your help, I really appreciate it. 

[Samuel's mum]

Just keep trying but everytime you give a bottle you are reinforcing the non-breastfeeding skills so it's a dilemma. Do consider giving him milk another way for a couple of days.

A nipple shield might help in your situation actually - he'll think it feels like a bottle and perhaps start sucking properly. In the long term though it's can make latching trickier but in your specific case - 'he's not sucking and just doesn't get it' it might really help.

I think skin-to-skin is very important. He has got natural instincts and reflexes in there somewhere. Lie with him with you both topless - he might latch on lying down. Or carry him around under your shirt - sounds odd but it really will help.

I would also consider giving a breastfeeding helpline a ring before Tuesday. There are other things you can do with some help - like teaching a baby to suck using a finger feeding method. Or using a supplementary nutritional system may help so he can have the ebm at the breast:
 http://www.expressyourselfmums.co.uk/Medela-Supplemental-Nursing-System/prodnum/22/areanum/230

Good Luck.

[bethann]

I don't know if this the best method, but it worked for us.  DS wouldn't latch for the first 2 days and the nurse finally tried to "bait and switch" him with a bottle of sugar water.  She first dribbled some of the sugar water on my nipple to stimulate him and wake him- he didn't really respond.  She then let him suck on the bottle for just a couple of sucks and then quickly inserted my nipple.  It took a couple of goes but he would eventually latch on.  We did this for a few feeds until he finally would latch on without the sugar water. 

Once in a while, he still won't latch.  He'll just kind of play with the nipple, even though it's been 3 hours since his last feed and he's giving me all the hungry cues.  It'll take a good 15 minutes to get him interested and feeding.  Once he's latched, he take in a full feed, but I must say how frustrating this is in the middle of the night- 5 times a night!!

So, Wendy-  HUGE HUGS!  You're doing an awesome job! 

[lilmonkey]

Just wanted to send hugs your way!  Have you tried feeding him with a syringe/cup in the meantime?  I agree with Emma about not giving him the bottle for a while.  When ds was too hysterical to latch on, I ended up feeding him with a syringe.  Sometimes I wonder why breastfeeding is so difficult when it should be a natural and beautiful thing! 

[VickyB20]

Hi Wendy.

Sorry to hear the new little man's not latching on.

I had a very similar problem with Kayden.  It took us about 3 weeks to suss it.  He would sometimes latch on, but mostly wouldn't.  Sometimes I'd try for an hour to get him latched on, but it wouldn't work and we'd both end up hysterical!  Like you, I often gave him expressed milk.

I used a bottle called a 'Haberman Feeder' (one of Tracy's suggestions).  Baby has to really suck the milk out, more than with a normal bottle.  It might be worth trying to find one.  (I tried syringe feeding but I found it took an inpractical amount of time that I just didn't have with the other two to look after as well.)

I saw a breastfeeding counsellor and a number of midwives / health visitors and they all said that positioning was fine.  One day, I totally chilled out about it and just let him sit for over an hour with his head right next to my breast.  He'd take my nipple in his mouth but not actually feed.  But I just let him be there... just to get comfy and get used to being there I suppose!  If he took my nipple in his mouth, I'd use 'breast compression' to try to encourage the milk flow.  That night, he latched on properly and finally seemed to just 'get it'.  I was so worried that he wouldn't learn to breastfeed but he did and I'm so pleased I persevered.

Best of luck to you both.  I'm sure you'll work it out over the next few days.

Vicky
x

[rusty]

Hi Wendy

I had this with Harriet and I pumped for waitt for it twelve weeks before she finally got the hang of it and what fixed it in the end was avent nipple shelds so it felt a little more like a bottle in her mouth it had to be avent they are harder than the others we id that unitil she was four and a half months then she got the hang of it I nursed her till she was two and a half.

Feel three to PM me I have lots of infor on pumping exclusively and how to get feeding going.

congratulations by the way.....

Rachel and Harriet

[woopster]

Hi all, he latched on again Wednesday night, I think it was.  We were sat in bed and he was faffing around and finally latched on.  The positioning wasn't great - he was more or less vertical and I wasn't the comfiest but I went with it and he fed for another 30 mins!

My HV came to see me today and suggested nipple shields as well, so I sent DH out to get some. She is also coming back on Wednesday and will spend the afternoon with me and see if we can crack this feeding lark. She has also contacted another l/c in the hope that she will be able to come and see me too.

Silly question...what is breast compression?

[VickyB20]

Breast compression is exactly how it sounds!  You 'compress' (read 'squash'!!) the breast whilst the baby is feeding.  It's one of the techniques recommended by breastfeeding guru Jack Newman.  Here's a link to more info...

http://www.bflrc.com/newman/handouts/0501-HO15-Breast_Compression.htm

I think there might be a link under b/f FAQs too on this forum.

I still use the technique now sometimes during the sleepy dreamfeed!

So pleased to hear he latched on Weds.  Fingers crossed that it gets easier from now on.  Good luck!

Vicky
x

[Samuel's mum]

Well done for continuing to plough on. It's still early days. I'm glad to hear of an HV willing to devote so much time to this.

This is another link about breast compression:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=88759.0

[VickyB20]

Just found this posted by Samuel's Mum' on the FAQs:-

Breast compression is a technique we sometimes recommend on the boards. It's actually nothing new - mothers have been doing it for thousands of years - but it does take a bit of practise. The mother is literally squeezing her breast to stimulate the flow of milk.

It can be useful if a young baby is sleepy or jaundiced and you want to ensure they are reaching the hindmilk. It can also be a way to motivate an older baby on the breast - perhaps if they are becoming frustrated with a slower flow.

However breast compression will only be useful if your latch is established well so if you have any concerns about that - do get some advice.

Dr Jack Newman - the breastfeeding specialist based in Canada - is a modern proponent of breast compression and he has developed some useful handouts and even an instructional video which you can find here:
http://www.bflrc.com/newman/handouts/0501-HO15-Breast_Compression.htm
and here:
http://www.breastfeedingonline.com/newman.shtml