2 1/2 yr old sleep trouble...please help!

[catonss]

Whoa....i feel like we have a newborn here, we're up so frequently lately!  We have a 2.5 yr old dd who up until 2 months ago was a great sleeper.  It was really bad early June, and then got better, and now it's bad again.  Here's what i think is going on: 

-Sep anxiety - is started one night when we were gone, then restarted when my DH was gone
-Bad Dreams - she tells us about them - and her imagination is blossoming!
-Overtired - it's just compounding each day. 
-Milestones - growth spurt (2 1/2 years), potty training, teeth (2 months ago it was clearly)
-New baby 7 months ago...less mommy time!

2 months ago when this started, we ended up sitting in her room until she was asleep.  Then moved outside room, then got better.  So we started doing that this time, but it's not seeming to help.  I've read some on here about WI/WO - but do you do this in the middle of the night?  Doesn't this wake them up when you check on them?  That's my big question. Maybe some of you could describe how you do it a bit more so i have a better picture.  seems like most of the posts about it are for younger kids. 

Because i'm sure someone will ask, here's her routine (when it was good):
6:30 Wake (i'd love it to be later, but she's stuck on it)
12:30 Nap for 1.25 hrs give or take
7:45 Asleep (leave the room around 7:30
So this if she sleeps all night (which even when things were good, she was waking once in the night 1-2 times a week), she gets around 12 hrs sleep (we assume - i guess you never know how long it takes them to fall asleep, you know?)  I keep reading in various places that for her age she should get at least 12 hrs total sleep.  Is that enough?  It did seem like putting her to bed earlier helped her before - helped get over the overtired, but as much as we've tried, we can't seem to get her to fall asleep b/f 7:30.  this morning, after losing about 2 hrs sleep throughout the night, she woke at 5:50.  ARGH! 

THe last couple days she's been waking several times at night - every couple hours.  and naps has been 45 min to 1 hr.  since we've been sitting in the room we can see that it takes her a long time to fall asleep sometimes - 45 minutes - just rolling around like she's not comfy or something (probably an overtired thing, huh?)  We wonder if us being in there is getting annoying to her...becoming a prop...  we've been waiting for things to improve some b/f we start sitting outside the room like before, but in some ways it's gotten worse. 

ANY HELP?

thanks!  Sarah

[Layla]

Hi Sarah. Sorry to hear you are having some sleep issues.

How do you respond to her for night wakings at the moment?

THe last couple days she's been waking several times at night - every couple hours.  and naps has been 45 min to 1 hr.  since we've been sitting in the room we can see that it takes her a long time to fall asleep sometimes - 45 minutes - just rolling around like she's not comfy or something (probably an overtired thing, huh?)  We wonder if us being in there is getting annoying to her...becoming a prop...

I have never sat in the room with Isabella because I KNOW that my presence will be too stimulating for her. She will just talk & talk & talk until she is exhausted & will only then fall asleep. I think you are better of doing your wind down routine, make it nice & relaxing & come bedtime you leave the room! If she starts crying, I would be doing the wi/wo. Same for nights.

Doesn't this wake them up when you check on them?  That's my big question. Maybe some of you could describe how you do it a bit more so i have a better picture.

She is already awake when you go in there. You can't stop her from waking up at night... but you can teach her that she needs to return back to sleep (unaided) when she wakes at night. When I've had to do wi/wo, it would go in (if she's crying), tell her its still night time & then leave. If she's standing, I put her down & tuck her in & then leave. Then count to say 5 or 10 (depending on her temperament) & if she's still crying at the end of your count you walk in again, reassure her ("its night time, go to sleep") & leave. Start counting again & if she's crying at the end of your count you go in again..... So you keep going back if she's crying at the end of your count & she will eventually learn that you are there but she needs to go back to sleep.

I have actually been having a few issues with my 2.5yo (just recently - teething molars) & we also had short naps & wake ups at night. Naps went down to 1hr & yesterday her nap was 45mins short 2nd day in a row. So I thought I'll try wi/wo at nap time. 1st day she took a 45min nap, I walked in to tell her it was still nap time. She did't go back to sleep but she stayed in bed (not crying) until I went to get her 30mins later. Yesterday again woke at 45mins....stood up & cried out. I walked in & told her it was still nap time & she went back to sleep (thankfully) - I was truely shocked. Today she stirred at 45mins, stood up but went back down on her own. So its just a matter of being consistent & following through.

When Isabella's nap is as short as 1hr (or as it has been 45mins), I do a very early bedtime. We do dinner at 5pm & in bed by 6pm (she's actually an early riser as well - 6ish am). So I am not sure how much earlier you are attempting bedtime but I would probably do 1 hr earlier (at least). Again, don't stay in the room... lay her down & leave.

I keep reading in various places that for her age she should get at least 12 hrs total sleep.  Is that enough?

Unfortunately we went down to 10.5hr nights & 1.5hr nap since around age 2....... so I do think that 12hrs is enough. Depends on the child though. If prior to all this she was good on 1.25hr nap & 11hr night then I think its ok.

For now you need to try & let her catch up on sleep & teach her independant sleep.

Let me know what you think
Layla

[catonss]

Thanks for your reply Layla.  We're thinking we need to make a change tonight, so i appreciate the quick response! 

How do you respond to her for night wakings at the moment? /quote]

Our bedtime routine is books, songs, laying down in crib, we rub her back for a minute or so, say goodnight and leave.  When she wakes at night we've been asking her to lay down, then we rub her back and say goodnight and leave again.  we haven't always done this, we used to just say it's still time for sleep, but there were bad periods where it would go on forever (in and out of the room)... In effort to calm her down and prevent her from getting so out of control, we started including the rubbing again when she wakes at night.  we really don't mind that part.  Again, i think her main problem is anxiety and fear, or at least it's how it all started, so we're ok with doing a little to help minimize that anxiety.  But a few weeks ago when it got really bad again (awake 4 hours off and on in the middle of the night - extreme crying fits, etc) - we asked if she'd like us to sit in the room.  our plan was to do this for a few nights, then move to the hall, etc.  we've done it before, and it worked.  but again, we thought she'd be sleeping better by now and be able to move out by now.  but i think at this point we just need to get out even though she's not sleeping better yet. 

So i'm thinking she would lash out if we stopped the back rubbing and just went in and said it's still time for bed.  whatever we do we're going to talk about it before hand and role play.  that has worked well for my DH and I - to role play a change so she can see how it will work. 

Here's a thought - trying to be optimistic here - let's say she doesn't lash out - and she accepts that we're not going to sit anymore - does the WI/WO theory only apply to when they're calling or crying?  We were wondering if it could be effective to tell her that we're not going to sit anymore, but we can come check on her.  So every couple minutes we'd go in (even though she's quiet) and say "are you ok?  i'm going to go back and finish washing dishes and I'll check on you in a few minutes."  This is what i'm wondering if it could wake her up....  maybe this isn't even something you all recommend doing.  any thoughts there? 

thanks!

[Layla]

Rubbing back is ok imo.... as long as you are not rubbing her back until she is asleep. Then it becomes a prop.

You've tried sitting with her but thats not helping, so I would move on to another method.

does the WI/WO theory only apply to when they're calling or crying?  We were wondering if it could be effective to tell her that we're not going to sit anymore, but we can come check on her.  So every couple minutes we'd go in (even though she's quiet) and say "are you ok?

Yes, usually you only go back in when/if she's crying. Another thing you could do is tell her you'll be back to check on her soon & actually come back & then delay the amount you take to come back. This is usually done with the Gradual Withdrawal method.... which is where you sit with her but move towrds the door with every night & towards the end when you need to get out, you tell her you'll be back to check on her & come back. So you "gradually" take yourself away from the picture.

What about talking to her about her anxieties & fear (during the day & not too close to bedtime)? Has she actually mentioned she is scared of anything? Could you talk to her about dreams (I don't think she's old enough to understand its "just a dream") but at least if say she is dreaming about a particular thing all the time (like spiders) you could try to make them seem more pleasant....

Does she watch much TV?

[catonss]

well, for now we're sticking w/ the gradual withdrawal method.  we've moved outside the room, sitting in a chair w/ the door open a crack (enough for her to see us) until we can see she's asleep.  she just really seems to be anxious right now - and for now we want to stick w/ this.  i just did another post asking for help from those who've had success w/ this method....

anyway, yes, we've talked about her fears some - she's brought some up - bad dreams about owls (not sure where that one came from) - she flipped out one night when we had a babysitter come after she was asleep and she woke up, then flipped out again when Dad was gone for a week - sleep got really bad after both incidents - so i know it's sep anxiety.  so we've tried to tell her everything we're doing - whenever we're going anywhere and how long we've been gone, etc.   She does watch some TV - i know it can add to the imagination - i try to limit it to 2 half hour shows - sometimes it's 3 (so 1.5 hrs total) - but never close to bedtime.  and i majorly monitor what she watches - try not to have anything scary - but you never know what a 2 year old might think is scary - even the "nice" monsters on Sesame street....

sarah