Almost 2, sleep deprived, and getting worse!

[Trentsmommy]

Please help!  My ds is close to 23 months, and has never been a good sleeper, the main issues being early wakings and very short naps.  At about 20 months he showed signs of being ready to go to one nap.  (He used to take a morning one of 45 min. to an hour, and an afternoon one of about 45 min.)  Well, now that he is on one nap, he only sleeps for about an hour, sometimes +10, and on a REALLY good day add 20 min.!)  He long ago used to sleep 11 hours at night, but it has been down to 10 for about 4 months.  And lately, he has become so overtired, that it's been about 9 and 1/2.

He was going to bed at 7, waking at 5, but we would often hear him sometime between 4 and 4:30.  Now, some mornings, like today, that's it and nothing will get him to go back to sleep; he was up for the day at 4.  He naps about 5 and 1/2 hours after waking.  I tried a suggestion from an earlier post to try inching it up to a 6 hour stretch, but it seemed anytime I tried to go longer, he would take a shorter nap.

My son has black circles under his eyes, and tends to be very whiny, no doubt from chronic overtiredness!
How can I fix all this?  I've tried earlier bedtimes, like 6:30, and it might help for a day or 2, but then he wakes at 4:30 for the day.  I've tried later bedtimes, for a few days he slept 7:30-5: 30, but that didn't stick either.
Please excuse my rambling-my husband, my son, and I are always exhausted. and I am just so frustrated.  We have set routines and wind downs, we make sure that he is fed.  He does fall asleep on his own.
Please help.  I am actually thinking of going to my pediatrician, just to see what he would tell me.  That is how bad I feel it is.
Thanks,
Gail

[zed]

I am actually thinking of going to my pediatrician, just to see what he would tell me.  That is how bad I feel it is.

I don't blame you, I would be exhausted too.  I had similar probs with my second DS but only until he was 11 months, when I was able get things right for him. 

I think it would be a good thing to do, to see your Pediatrician.  It sounds like you have worked hard on a routine and things just aren't working.  (maybe someone with more experience could help you better if you posted his routine)

I know I have been shot down before on the sleep boards for my thoughts on children around 2 years and older.   But, I found with my DS1 that sometimes taking a stand (after you've done your best to figure out what the problem is) ends up getting me the fastest result.  I believe a 2 year old can understand well enough to be told the way it will be. 

With DS1 (now 3) my husband and I would often just tell our DS that nap time wasn't over yet and he had to stay in bed until the 1 1/2 hours were up.  He didn't always sleep but at least he had quiet time.

As for the early wakes, I don't have any experience with that, with an older child.  (older than 12 months that is)

I really hope things get better for you.

[Layla]

Hi Gail... sorry to hear things are so tough at the moment.

Can you tell me what your "ideal" day looks like?

He does sound VERY overtired to me & 9.5hrs is definitely not enough.

So when he wakes at 4:30 in the morning, do you offer him a nap at 10am??? (thats 5.5 hrs from time he wakes). Then he sleeps for 1hr & then you put him down at night what time???

Layla

[Trentsmommy]

Hi there,

Ok, an ideal day for us would be something like:

6:30 Wake and milk
7:15 breakfast
10:00 snack
11:45 lunch
12:00 wind down
12:30-2:00 Nap  (If he would sleep a consistent 1.5, we'd be ecstatic!)
2:45 snack
5:30 dinner
6:00 bath
7:00 wind down
7:30 asleep

It goes more like this:
5:00 wake/milk/cuddle watch video
6:45 breakfast
7:00 Grandma comes to babysit
10:00 milk/snack/downtime
between10:30 &10:45 falls asleep
wakes sometime between 11:30 &12 (usually slept an hour or slightly more)
12-1 activity
1:00 lunch
3:00 snack
5:00 dinner (can't be any later, too tired to handle it)
5:30 bath
5:45 pjs, milk, cuddle & watch a few minutes video
6:00 -6:15 read in his room
6:15-6:25 I rub his stomach for a few minutes.
Fall asleep on own about 6:40 some nights asleep by 6:30, others not til 7.  He has been attempting a lot of manipulation at bedtime lately, too.

Yes, if he is up at 4:30, I do try to give him a nap at 10:00. 
I feel like two naps is too many, and one isn't enough.  In case you haven't guessed, ds is a TOUCHY  baby.  He was the poster child for colic the first few months.
I appreciate any advice you can give us!
Gail

[Layla]

Gail just going to put the girls to sleep & be back in about 20mins 

[Layla]

Ok, so at 23months, you wouldn't want 2 naps anyway... so this is what I would suggest:

Morning milk/cuddle/video - I would actually STOP all of these. The thing is, you are kinda setting his morning wake up time to an early hour by allowing to have milk/cuddle & watch a video by letting his brain think its "wake up time". What you want is darkness & no milk or visual stimulation until YOU want him to wake up. So if he's up at 5am.... (which he will be until we work on the schedule), I would leave him in the cot if he's not crying & let him have some "quiet time" rather than take him out & let him think its ok to start the day then. Have you ever tried wi/wo method??? If he IS crying, then I would go in & tell him its still night time & do wi/wo until your desired wake up time (that is if he wakes any earlier than 10.5hrs.... any less & I believe he is overtired & needs more than that).

The milk in the morning - same thing... try to delay everything until at least 6am. His stomach has been conditioned to want to eat/drink that early in the morning.

Bedtime - I would actually do an earlier bedtime for a few days. You said it worked for a few days... what time did he wake in the morning? I would do no later than 6.30pm (to be asleep by). Let him catch up on some sleep.

Naps - Do your best not to let him have a nap any earlier than 11am. You want to start shifting his day to a later wake up time & alot of times when you put them down for too early for a nap, they tend to wake early as well. He is then awake for 6.5-7hrs before bedtime so that is an extremely long stretch & just causes more overtiredness. If it was me... I would do an even earlier bedtime - 6pm... because in total you want about 13hrs (for his age) & if he is only napping for 1hr, you want close to 11.5-12hrs at night. I know that seems a scary thought.... but I really think an earlier bedtime would help. He could be "ok" on a 10hr night if his nap was 1.5-2hrs but for 1hr nap, he needs a longer night.

5:00 dinner (can't be any later, too tired to handle it)

this makes me think if you put him down for the night close to 6pm, he would fall alseep easily... & I believe he would sleep until his normal wake up time

Before the nap though - because you are going to try & stretch that A time... its a good to take them out in the morning for some physical activity... get him to run around in the park, etc... & then come close to 10.30, start your windown routine. Make it nice & long (30mins) so that he has a chance to calm down & not be too pooped/tired to sleep & sleep well. IF he wakes 45mins later, I would do wi/wo.... thats if he's crying to get beyond 45mins. If he wakes 1hr later, I would still leave him in the cot for another 30mins... you never know.. he might go back to sleep. You don't want to take him out straight away - i think sometimes they get used to that as well & tend to wanna be out of the cot rather than complete the full sleep cycle.

It is definitely possible to change whats going on here. In time you will start adding more A time to his nap & bedtime so that his internal clock adjusts to a later wake up time.

Ok, I blabbed on .... let me know what you thing

[Trentsmommy]

Hi,
Thank you for the advice!  Here is what happened this morning.  (He was asleep last night at about 6:35)  He woke at 4:30, crying, but not screaming, so I did not go in there.  He cried for 30 minutes, then slept from 5-5:30.  What I have found with wi/wo is that it seems to make him furious, and there is no way he would ever go back to sleep.  I don't leave him to cry if he is super upset.  If he is, I go in there. I could see myself staying in there with him until it was wake up time and maybe just sitting in the rocke.  liked the one person's idea of the light on the timer.  He has never been one to wake up and play, so I would almost have to teach him how to do it.

He would not have have trouble going to sleep at 6, what I worry about is that he will wake even earlier.  He just seems to have his internal clock set at 10 hours, and some mornings, like today, I get lucky, and he'll go back to sleep.  I guess I could keep trying it like I did today.

As far as naps, I think if I could get him out of the overtiredness, he would do a little better, maybe go back to the consisten hour and 20 he had for a few weeks, but as far as getting him to go back to sleep, I have my doubts.  Any time I have ever tried it, he just gets really really upset.  He is so high strung (like me) that I think when he wakes he is afraid of missing something, and wants to be up.  We took a long car trip this summer, and he woke after an hour, but kept going back to sleep until he'd actually slept 2 hours!  He has never slept 2 hours in his crib.  Do you still think I should try it even though he has such a Touchy temperament?

I am going to stress to my Mom about lots of activity in the am.  We live in Phoenix, so I could have her take him in the pool.  Sometimes she takes him to the library for storytime.

So, I will try the 6 pm bedtime tonight, and keep the nap at 11:00 with lots of activity.  I will do my best to keep in bed in the morning even if he's awake.  It's hard the days I work since I have to get ready too!

If you have some more ideas based on what I've told you, I'd love to hear them!
Gail

[Layla]

I am a bit  on letting him cry for 30mins.... was it a mantra cry?

I guess I could keep trying it like I did today

I would try the earlier bedtime for a few days at least.... he returned back to sleep because he probably needs a longer night or at least for now to catch up on sleep

Do you still think I should try it even though he has such a Touchy temperament?

What about trying w2s to extend the nap? I don't think its a good idea to take him out straight away...he needs to learn to put himself back to sleep for a longer than 45min nap

The pool is a great idea!

[Trentsmommy]

Hi there,

quote author=Isabella&Jasmine's mum link=topic=100079.msg989718#msg989718 date=1187573972]
I am a bit  on letting him cry for 30mins.... was it a mantra cry?

Yes, it was a mantra cry.  He is so tired he barely has the energy to do it.  Like I said, if he gets really upset than I do go in there, but then it seems I have to stay.  WI/WO gets him po'd!

He was a little better today, and slept 1 hr 10 min., although still just 10 at night.

I am really going to try in the morning...renewed efforts about sending the message that it is still night!
Thank you!

[mari]

Because he is up during the night, I would let him have a really short little catnap in the morning, just to get him through the overtired thing that he seems to have.  What about 9.30am for about 15 minutes and then he might nap a little better for you around 12ish.  Hopefully he won't be so tired at bedtime then     Just something that I did with a lo who was trying to nap too early.


Just another thought, how does he fall asleep for naps and bedtime usually?