How old does wake to sleep work for?

[catonss]

I've been trying to help my 2.5 year old's sleep - she's been night waking, short naps, etc. - basically she gets in overtired cycles pretty easily.  Getting her to sleep earlier for naps and night seems to help some.  But i wondered about wake to sleep.  It's worked wonders on our baby.  But does it work for older children?  Anyone tried it on a 2.5 year old?  I think if she did wake she'd be confused about me being in there.  We've been pretty strict about not going in to help her once we leave the room (we did gradual withdrawal, and if now she fusses, we sit outside her door, and say "we've already helped you, it's your turn now, you can do it, we love you!"  But we don't go in).  If she did wake, i wouldn't want her to think we're in there to help her and take a step back in our training... 
Any thoughts?   Maybe this isn't even suggested for this age.....didn't know.
Sarah

[momofclaire]

Does she wake consistantly at the same time?  Wake 2 sleep will only work with habitual waking. 
What does her routine look like?  Does she wake every night?  Do you think she is trying to drop that nap but getting overtired in the process?

[catonss]

Honestly, i don't know what's going on - and i've spent all summer trying to figure it out.  This started in June - was a separation anxiety spell (it started w/ a not good babysitter experience one night) that got better after a month of gradual withdrawal training.  July was better, sleeping through the night again and regular naps.  Then it came back in Aug when dad was gone for a week.  Although she's obviously sensitive, and has struggled w/ sleep on and off (every milestone has really thrown her off), and needed a pretty strict routine, overall she has been a great sleeper.  Overall has needed more sleep than the average. 

So, here's her routine when things are going well:
6:30 or 6:45 Wake
12:30-2 Sleep
7:15 or 7:30 Sleep
So usually 12.5 or 13 total hrs sleep.

She was doing better last week after it was really bad, and then one day we got home late from a play group, and although she fell asleep ok, her nap was an hour late.  then the overtired thing started again, and she woke at 6 the next morning (she had been doing 6:45-7).  When the overtired thing is going on, we have 1-3 night wakings, short naps, etc.  And she's set on waking up at 6 during these times.  That's the waking i was wondering about wake to sleep for (the other wakings are more random).  It's obviously too early as she's SOOOOO grumpy.  and there is not getting her back to sleep.  i think she looks at the clock knows that during the 6:00 hour we let her have books in her bed (we have let her after 6:30, cause "the rule" is she stays in bed until 7).  If she wakes at 5:50, i can get her to go back to sleep (i'm wondering if it's cause she doesn't see the "6").  So we need to change her clock or something.

I can't imagine her being ready to give up her nap.  But who knows.  We've been struggling with something for 3 months....and i've wondered if we're not putting her down at the right time or if there's something we're not getting right routine wise or what.  I know so many of my friends with 2.5 year olds are not still putting their kids down at 7.  Most it's more like 8 or 8:30.  I don't even know what end is up though right now and all we've been doing is trying to get her over these overtired sessions.  I don't know what our goal should be, or what is best for her, or what she needs right now.  It's so frustrating.

Until a few weeks ago, i was still sticking to nap time at 12:30, even if it was an overtired cycle.  but after reading lots of posts on here, i'm hearing it's better to try and lay them down 5.5 hrs after wake.  so on days she wakes up at 6, her nap should be 11:30.  This is hard to do, but we've been trying.  yesterday i got her to sleep by 12, which was earlier than normal for a 6 wake-up, and she fought sleep for an hour, falling asleep at 1 for a 45 min. nap.  And she woke up crying and so grumpy.  i know it wasn't enough.  THen at night, we laid her down at 6:40 and she went to sleep right away.  Maybe we really need to be strict about the 5.5 thing?  and even if it's ridiculously early, just do it?

OK, sorry so long, but there's the background.  anyone seeing anything i'm missing?  Of course, my parents, who we only see 2-3 times a year are coming to visit this weekend.  they're going to think i'm NUTS for putting her to bed so early.  I was really hoping this would be cleared up by then.....oh well.

thanks so much......sarah

[momofclaire]

Sarah,
It seems that a lot of kids go through this at her age.  I think if she is waking grumpy then she probably is still tired.  I think 12-13 hours of sleep should be enough for her, so your ideal routine does have enough sleep. 
Do you think that she would be able to know it's time to get up with an alarm of some sort. There are clocks that have little lights that turn on when it is "time."  This way if she woke and didn't see the light, she might grab a book and rest or fall back asleep.   

I think that quiet time is a good idea.  It seems that many children her age start to fight the nap. I usually suggest that you tell them they can lay down and read or listen to a special cd. The thought is that they will fight this less and fall asleep while relaxing. 
If she doesn't get a decent nap then I would put her to bed early. 
I hope this helps.
Myia

[catonss]

Thanks for your thoughts....  Yes, i think you're right that so much of this is just normal for this age.  Hence, the "terrible two's" right?! 
So back to my original question... anyone tried wake to sleep for toddlers this age (2.5)?  I actually tried it today for nap.  and i think it worked.  or something worked - not sure what!  I also got her down more like 5.5 hrs after she woke up.  I tried W2S at nap b/c she's been stuck on 45 mins.  Today i woke her at 1 hr. 5 mins.  She usually doesn't sleep that long, but in the name of catching up, i let her sleep.  I wasn't as nervous to try it at nap.  Cause i know that first half hour they're pretty out.  But i'm nervous to try it at the 6:00 hour.  Who knows, maybe the big nap today will allow her to sleep longer into the morning. 
We moved her clock back.  She does look for the "6" - we asked her.  So maybe that will help.  So now the actual time of 6:00 says 5:45 on her clock. 

[Colin Macs Mom]

Have you done it since? Did it work?

[catonss]

THanks for asking....  Yes, i've tried it a few times, at naps and at 5am for the 6am wake-up. 

Here's the last 3 nights:
1)  W2S at 5, she woke at 6:30 - better!
2) She woke up herself at 4am (rare) and was up until 4:50.  Then slept until 7:10.  Not sure what that was.
3)  W2S at 5, she woke at 5:45, was easily laid back down and went right back to sleep...woke at 7:10.

No patterns yet...but if nothing else, i guess we're throwing her pattern off. and maybe the habit will go away?  I've heard you need to do it for 3 nights. Do you think we've done it enough??

As for naps, we've moved them a bit earlier, and i think they're taking care of themselves.  We've had b/t 1-1.5 hrs these few days.  I tried W2S two times, wasn't sure if it helped.  Earlier down for nap is helping, and of course so is her being a little more caught up on sleep in general.

Overall we're doing a little better.  Her mood sure is better!!

[Colin Macs Mom]

Well that's good to hear!! I was thinking about this post because Colin went through a phase for a couple weeks of waking at 3am so I was thinking of using W2S. But then he stopped. But yes, you need to do it at least three nights but many people do it longer, even up to two weeks to ensure success.