please help with overtiredness

[lucybee]

hi
my lo is 8.5 months and i'm sure she's overtired.  Went through a phase of 20 min napsbut i managed to get them onto 2 x 55 mins a day, but she was still tired and not waking up happy.  posted on naps board and had a suggestion of extending activity time as naps wouldn't go past 55 mins, but i tried this by a few mins and we've gone back to 30 min naps in the afternoon.
She's also been waking up at night for the past 3 months. it was 5am but now it's 4am and she's then awake moaning til about 5.30 before she drops back off.  She gets herself to sleep in the day and can eventuall at night.  We've discovered it generally makes her worse if we go in.  Just don't know what to do to beat the overtiredness as we've tried 6pm bedtimes and it just doesn't seem to help that much. 

any suggestions cos i'm absolutely knackered cos i often can't get back to sleep until at least 6 and then it's 7 and time to get up.
Our routine seems to be all over the place at the moment but we aim for this.
7am wake and feed porridge with fruit and 3oz milk (done together cos of reflux)
9.25ish nap
11 milk
12.15 lunch
1.45 nap
3.15 milk
5 dinner
6 bath and milk
6.30 bed

have also tried shorter activity times but makes little difference.

please help
thanks

[VeroniqueD]

Well, my first suggestion would have been what you received already. Extend the activity time.....but that didn't seem to work for you.
Are things still the same? Could it be teething? Or maybe the reflux? How long has you LO been on two naps?

Hope things get better....

[elmarie]

Lucybee, I do think that she is OT.  I would suggest that you try and extend the 55min naps with PU/PD or wi/wo.  to get the naps to 1 1/2-2h.  A time should be 2-2 1/2h.The EW is a typical sign that she is OT. 

[lucybee]

Thanks for your replies.
good to know that i'm at least right about the OT.
Yesterday was a bit better managed to get her to have about 1.5 to 2 hours sleep in afternoon and was in bed for 6 and she slept til 5.10, thankfully better than 4!
Today I've been having a lovely girls day with my friends and all of our husbands have had the children, yay! He managed to get her to sleep mostly for 1.5 hours this am and similar this pm amd she was in bed for 6.30 so we'll see how we go tonight.

one question, if she wakes up around 5, should i just get up with her as this morning she didn't seem to fall asleep til 6.30 and only slept for about 30 mins and then it was more difficult to know when to put her down for a sleep this am.  Don't want to reinforce the EW by getting her up but wonder if a few days of getting up at this time would help the better naps to be established??
Thanks so much for your help

[elmarie]

I would leave her for 30min or so if she is happy and not crying.  If she still hasn't fallen asleep I will get her up-11h is a good nights sleep

[lucybee]

Thanks, that's kind of what I was thinking.

Well last night she completely confused me by waking at 2.45! and went straight to crying.  She didn't seem happy so waited a bit and then gave her some meds as she's still got a bit of the cold and been very coughy, and added a blanket to her cot and by 3.30 she was asleep again and I heard her at 7.10.  Don't know if she'd been awake before this but DH got up with her and he said she was happy enough.

She's had 1 hour nap this am and so far about 35 mins this avo, so we'll see how she goes.  Meant to say before, we did try PU/PD but it was way too stimulating and she really didn't like being picked up.  So did a wi/wo kind of thing with a bit of sshh while I was in there bu didn't have loads of success, but hopefully she's starting to take longer naps now.

Thanks so much for the advice. will let you know if it gets better

[elmarie]

Just remember with PU/PD you don't have to pick up immediately.  If she cries and you go in lay your hand on her back so that she can feel your presence (often the shh/pat with older babies is to stimulating).  You comforting her and giving her the security that she needs. You only pick her up if she doesn't settleOn average it can take you 20min but I can remember doing it for 1 1/2h one night.  Just remember that sleep training can take a long time, it is not going to work in 1 night, it can take weeks.  So just keep going it will work...

[lucybee]

Me again.
Well this is how we went today.
She woke up at 7.10 having been awake for about an hour around 4 in morning (put some teeth stuff on and she settled fairly quickly)
Seemed really tired so put her down about 9.10 and she slept for an hour and woke up happy (probably should have kept her up a bit longer to get a longer sleep).  She seemed really tired after about an hour and a half but kept her up for 2.45 and she settled ok and after moaning at 40 mins slept for almost 2 hours.  Still seemed tired but wouldn't go back to sleep, so got her up. got her an early bedtime and she was asleep by about 5.50.
But as the time at night that she wakes up seems to vary a lot, i'm confused about whether she's just got into the habit of going to bed early and so waking up early.  She can generally sleep for 11 hours at night without waking and if there was some way of getting bedtime to 7 then waking at 6 now would be fine.
Any ideas?
Am also starting to get stressed about the prospect of the clocks going back this coming weekend - as it feels like she'll be going to bed in the middle of the afternoon soon!
I know I should be really grateful that she sleeps for as long as she does (and I am) but just don't seem to be getting anywhere with sorting this.

[elmarie]

teething can play havoc with a lo's sleeping and they can often go off track.  You can push bedtime up by starting to push naps with 15min every 3-5 days.  So you can do nap 9.15 instead of 9. After 3-5days you push it another 15min ect (Just remember to do it slowly and watch out for OT signs).  She should adjust to the later bedtime and hopefully later waking up.   

[lucybee]

Well, last night she was asleep by 6 and I didn't hear her til 6 this morning, hurrah!
She had her first nap today at about 8.45 and slept for 1hr 20 mins and woke happy.  I kept her up for just under 3 hours and although she woke at the 20 min point she put herself back to sleep but has now woken having had 1 hour altogether and seemed happy for a couple of mins but i left her to see if she'd get some more sleep as she started moaning a bit and it's only 2.15 so she'll not last til bedtime if I get her up.  Do you think I should leave her up for longer than 3 hours tomorrow to see if she'll nap longer.  Wasn't sure today and didn't want to risk overtiredness by keeping her up to long.  Ah, things are never simple!

[elmarie]

I think the 6ish bedtime should be ok.  They can usually handle a little more A time in the pm.  Maybe a 5.30-5.45pm sleep.  It shouldn't effect night time as they usually tend to catch up a bit and wake up the same time.  Keep us posted....

[lucybee]

Sorry, me again with another question.
I think we're finally over the overtiredness now as she went til quarter to 6 again this morning.  I decided to give her a bit longer activity time first thing as yesterday she still only sleptfor an hour, so she was asleep after 3 hours and slept for 2 ! Wow, i didn't know what to do with myself. So then i thought she would be able to handle longer so she was back asleep after 3h 20, but still woke after an hour.  Was just wondering if you thought i should increas activity time by more, just don't want to end up with an overtired bunny again!
She was asleep for about 6.45 so we'll see how she goes tonight.
Sorry for deviating from the sleep question but you've been so helpful
thanks again.

[elmarie]

No, just stick to the A time.  For pm nap I will also stick to the 3h A for now until she has settled down with the longer A time.  Sometimes just that @0min can make a difference as they can be so sensitive to getting OT.

So glad to hear that the hear that dd is sleeping better...

Keep us posted

E X