Author Topic: Getting worse not better - help!!  (Read 1170 times)

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Offline mumofiz

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Getting worse not better - help!!
« on: October 30, 2007, 14:40:44 pm »
Hello, sorry this is a long one.....

Started EASY 22 days ago to get my daughter (5months) to take her naps in her cot and to try to extend them beyond 45 mins. Since then I've seen no improvements and have just had one of our worst nights and days since we started. Am feeling upset, teary, frustrated and very very tired  :(. I could handle the difficult nap times if the nights weren't so awful, which is why I am posting here rather than nap board, although really my problems are with both.

My lo is mostly textbook with some touchy (definately not a textbook sleeper  ;D). She's bf only on a 3.5 hour schedule - have tried extending to 4 hours but she struggles to make it beyond 3.5. Apart from her regular eating there has been no routine since we started this. Bad nights mean early naps, which try as I may I can't extend beyond 45mins and so EASY gradually becomes more ESA as the day wears on. We ususally manage 3 x 45 min naps a day, sometimes 4. After 3 weeks it can still take her up to an hour to fall asleep, usually with crying for the last part. I don't shhh/pat or PU/PD, I leave her when I first put her down unless she's crying, If she cries I go and put a hand on her chest and shhhh and stay with her either til she stops or til she sleeps. 90% of the time she spends at least the last 5-10mins crying. She has always fought sleep, even when we used to rock her to sleep she would have a cry. Although the days and nights differ depending on how long it takes her to fall asleep etc I will try to give you an idea of the kind of days/nights we're having...

day:
7am - bf & A
8.15 - windown & put in cot
9.00 - sleep
9.45 - attempt to extend then A
10.30 - bf & A
11.30 - windown and put down
12.15 - sleep
1.00 - attempt to extend then A
2.00 - bf & A
3.00 - wind down and put down (often she spends most of the time after going down looking around, blowing bubbles, sucking fingers etc etc)
4.00 - sleep if I'm lucky
4.45 - wake up, a couple of times she hasn't woken up from this and I've ended up waking her at 5.30
6.00- wind down
6.30- bf
7 - sleep
night:
10/10.30- df
1.30am - wakes, soiled nappy change
2.30 -wakes - shhh, back to sleep
2.50 - wakes,  shh back to sleep
3.30 - wakes -bf
3.50 - back in cot, awake
4.00- change soiled nappy, stays awake in cot - lip sucking etc til about 5 then starts mantra crying - rest hand and sshhhh her, mantra becomes proper crying
6.00 - sleep
6.45 - wakes

So we are in a cycle of OT that I have no idea  how to break. I have tried putting her down at the first sign of tiredness, sometimes only half an hour after waking, first time I did that it took 1.5 hrs for her to fall asleep, I have tried going by the clock. All I can say is some days/nights are better than the one above, some are worse. I would have thought after 3 weeks I would see some pattern or regularity emerging and I would have liked her to fall asleep without crying. I make sure her activities are low key for 1/2 hr before nap time, I have wind down routines, I try extending most naps, I am at a loss as to what to do next. I'd like to point out that although day time naps have always been a problem from 2-4 months we had good nights (S-6.30, df- 10.30, bf- 3.30, awake- 6.30 with no other wakings).

So ANY general advice would be great, but I also have a couple of specific q's I'd like answered if poss...

- when she wakes in the nights should I ignore any 'quiet awake' and mantra crying, or should I start 'hand and shhh' straight away? I've been inconsistent with this depending on my own tiredness, sometimes if I leap up at the first sound I can resettle within 5 mins, If I don't it almost always escalates into proper crying after a while.

- What do I do with the very early waking?? - anything from 3.45-4.15, and it's certainly not because she's well rested!!
  - am thinking of dropping the dreamfeed,  mostly so I can get some sleep in as now so tired I want to go to bed at 8.30ish and either have to set the alarm for the df or stay awake for it- what do you think?

Am so desparate, please help if you can.

Thank you

Offline Bryony

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Re: Getting worse not better - help!!
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2007, 20:01:03 pm »
Hi there

First of all - BIG HUGS!!!  I know just how difficult and draining it can be.   And of course you feel emotional right now - sleep deprivation is horrible.

Now, to answer your specific questions:

1. Personally yes I would ignore any quiet awake and mantra crying (well it's hard to ignore it, but I wouldn't go in there!) to give her chance to learn to settle herself back to sleep. We all wake or half-wake in the night and need to be able to just shuffle around and go back to sleep. Maybe she will go back to sleep and maybe she won't, but if you don't give her chance to try she willl never learn.  If she starts sounding upset then you have to go in to her.

2. Early wakings - yikes, that's early!  Suggests overtired as you say. I think you just have to try and get her to go back to sleep with your hand on her chest and shhh or whatever works for her.

3. Yes I would drop the dream feed - some people find it makes for more NWs, so it's worth a try. And as you say at least you can go to bed early!  But at her age you would expect to do a night feed so you will still need to feed her during the night at some point.

Dont worry about the 3.5hourly feedings - some people don't make it to 4 hourly until they are a fair bit older, especially if you are are BF. Keep thinking about stretching it if you can, but dont worry and if 3.5 hourly is what she can do then that's fine.

I know that 45 min naps are a right royal pain - I also have a 45 min napper  ::) ::)   Everyone says they are most often due to the A time being too short, but for us they also happen if Katie is overtired - so it can be very hard to know which way to adjust the A times!    And I think some LOs just do 45-ers no matter what you do.  There is a great support thread for short nappers in the naps section if you haven't been over there yet. It sure kept me sane at times.

In terms of getting on top of the overtiredness - the main thing is to watch that last A time before bed. If she wakes at 4:45pm then I woud go for an earlier bed time eg 6:15 or 6:30pm at the latest. After a 45 mins nap you really want to keep the A time low, esp just before bed.  Also after a 45 mins nap I would keep the A time as low as possible. Will she fall asleep in the buggy or car? I used to "cluster nap" - if Katie woke at 45 mins I would often take her for a walk in the buggy to get her back to sleep, and she would fall asleep about 1-1.5 hrs later, sleep for another 45 mins, and then be able to manage a much longer A time.  It did mean I had to do that a lot, and yes it was a prop, but it was my choice and worth it to stop OT-related NWs. You want 4 or 5 45ers a day at her age, if possible  ::) 

Sorry not to have any magic answers - but hope that's a few things for you to think about. Hopefully others will have more suggestions for you.

In the meantime - hang in there, it will get better, and it sounds as though you are doing great!  It takes time if you start using BW methods once your LO is older, and if she's now napping in her cot that's a great breakthrough.

Hugs

Bryony



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Offline mumofiz

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Re: Getting worse not better - help!!
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2007, 08:48:00 am »
Hi Bryony,

Thanks so much for your reply, and the hugs!

I do agree about leaving her til she starts to cry when she nw, think I've just been trying to avoid the tears and I probably get a bit more sleep by resettling her early, but you're right - she won't learn unless I give her the chance. I feel better today as I went to bed early and left out the dream feed, she woke at 1am so I fed her then and again at 4.30am - again though she didn't go back to sleep til 5.45 (awake again 6.30) but that was less time than the night before. Unfortunately she doesn't sleep in the pushchair or the car unless she's pretty  tired out and then it can still take a while, it took her til 3 months old to learn to fall asleep in there as well! - have always envied those mums who have bubs that drop off easily with motion. We'll keep working on it though - amazing how much more positive and together I feel with a bit more sleep and being able to share and get advice on here makes me less alone with it.

So thanks again.

Offline Bryony

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Re: Getting worse not better - help!!
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2007, 09:51:31 am »
So glad you are feeling better today!  Sounds like you had quite a good night.

My LO doesn't sleep in cars either  ::)  but will sleep in the buggy provided I lie her completely flat, darken it, give her her lovie, and keep it moving at all costs...

Bryony


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Offline rob1lu2

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Re: Getting worse not better - help!!
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2007, 03:23:59 am »
Sounds like Bryony has given you some good advice - most of it the same that I would have given!

So I'll just send you {{{HUGS}}}

I'm posting to mark my place so I can help.

Let us know how you get on!

Lu

Offline mumofiz

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Re: Getting worse not better - help!!
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2007, 14:39:16 pm »
Hello,

thanks both of you  for the support and encouragement. Last night I was determined to wait out the mantra crying before going to her - our night went like this...

6.30pm - sleep
9.00pm - wake, cry, leave for 10 mins til cry becomes needy so go to her and resettle with shhh and hand
9.40pm - as above
10.15 - did the df as I was up anyway
1.30 - awake - mantra crying til 2.15 then more needy crying so sat with her (shhhh etc)
2.45 - sleep
4.10 - wake - feed, change soiled nappy, back down awake - I must've fallen asleep as the next I heard from her was 5.30, so she may have played quietly all that time or she may have fallen asleep quietly 
5.30 - mantra then needy crying so shhh
5.45 - sleep
6.30 - up and awake for the day ... yawn from mummy

Naps so far
-put her down at 8.10, she fell asleep by herself (miracles do happen  ;D) after chatting/playing for 20 mins and mantra crying for 10. Slept for 45mins
- had to go out and about so slept in her pushchair til we got home - approx  40 mins
- put her up for her nap at first tiredness signs at 1.15, she played quietly for 10 mins and has now been mantra crying bordering on needy for 40mins  :(  .....

..... Ok have just come back from sitting with her for the last 20mins and it's driving me crazy, the crying turns mantra and slows, her eylids drop closed, she starts to relax then she wriggles, shakes her head violently or puts her hand up to rub her face or fights her eyes open again until she is fully awake and starts crying again - this can repeat on and on. So all in all it's taken 1hour 10 mins for her to fall asleep, the last 10-15mins pretty full on bawling. I used to hold her arms and legs down, which would get her to sleep quicker but if she's going to learn to fall asleep, night or day, without me and to self soothe I can't keep doing that can I? Instead I put a hand on her chest, so her arms are still free to cuddle lovie, suck fingers etc, and shhh and when she's calm and dropping I remove the hand and then stop the shhh, this probably contributes to her starting up again but I feel is the only way to help her to learn to fall asleep on her own.

I'm finding it really difficult to deal with the amount of time she is spending crying in her cot - mantra or otherwise, we have such a lovely time together when she's up that I feel like I'm  bringing all this horribleness into our days and nights. The bags under her eyes also make me feel sad. I was prepared to be strong about this but I never thought after 3 weeks she would still take an hour of crying to fall asleep. I will stick with it, partly because I'm stubborn, partly because I have no idea what else to do! I just really hope it gets easier for her soon.

Sorry, this was meant to be a brief post and instead I've gone on and on, half of what I've written probably belongs on the nap board rather than here!!   Again I would really appreciate any comments on what I'm doing so far.

Thanks again

 

Offline Bryony

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Re: Getting worse not better - help!!
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2007, 15:14:44 pm »
Oh HUGGSS!! Poor you. I can completely understand your frustration. I suspect changes will take time, especially as she is getting to be quite a big girl now - it takes longer to change old habits. But you will get there - so good for you for being stubborn!

When Katie had phases of waking at 9:30pm or so, I would do her DF (OK so more of an awake feed!) then to avoid disturbing her again. Might be something for you to think about - although obviously has the disadvantage of risking a feeding to sleep association.

She does sound overtired to me - that kind of crying and shaking her head and being really hard to settle, short naps and NWs. What are her A times during the day?  What were her naps like yesterday?  I am wondering whether you need to put her down for naps a lot earlier - by the time some LOs show tired signs they are way past it and so you need to go by the clock a bit more. Eg for us, Katie currently shows tired signs at 3.5 hrs. So I get her into bed by 3.25hrs as she's OT and impossible to settle if I leave it until 3.5hrs. Obvoiusly for you, your A times will be much shorter, but hopefully you see what I mean.  Do you do a pre-nap wind-down to try and get her nice and relaxed?  This really really helps if you are not doing it already.

In terms of holding her legs down - some people still swaddle thier LOs at 5 months. I wouldn't start swaddling her now, as this is the age when most are weaning them off the swaddle - but I wouldn't feel bad about holding her arms and legs if that's what you think she needs - you can always wean it off later once she's got more settled and is less overtired.  Sounds like you are doing great with the shh/pat.
 
I wish I had some magic answers for you, but I would encourage you to hang in there, and to try and do what you can to get on top of her OT at this point.

Hugs

Bryony


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Offline mumofiz

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Re: Getting worse not better - help!!
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2007, 07:15:55 am »
She's definately over-tired, we seem to start the day that way from a bad night and never recover because we can't seem to get beyond the 45 min nap. Her A time is never more than 2 hours (unless we're out and it's a bit more out of my control), if she shows tired signs before then she goes straight up, if no tired signs I usually take her up after 1.45 A time. I keep an eye on the clock and make sure that as we head towards sleep time A becomes less stimulating maybe reading stories, playing with a quiet toy on her mat or nursery rhymes. Then as we head upstairs I tell her nap time, we sit on the bed and read twinkle twinkle (same short story for every nap), I close the curtains, remind nap time and sing the same 2 songs, tell her nap time as I put her down, tuck her in, pull cord on music toy and leave her to it. Can you see anything that might need adjusting here?

Yesterday her catnap went from 4-6pm, I let her sleep on to try to catch up on some sleep, last night however, went like this.... 
7pm - sleep
9pm - very early df when I went to bed
12.30 - awake, resttled herself after mantra crying for 10 mins
1.30 - awake, needed resettling
1.45 - sleep
2.55 - wake - breastfeed
3.15 - sleep
4.00 - awake, playing in cot until...
5.00 - mantra crying starts
6.15 - give up on trying to settle her and breastfeed (didn't want to do this as only just over 3 hrs since last feed but was feeling a bit desperate)
6.35 - back in cot  crying begins
6.45 - give up and get up  :(

It's now 7.15, she's been awake for 3hrs15mins and I'm about to take her up again. Hope she falls asleep quickly, I could do with a nap too!! Today I'm going to keep all A times to  1 and a half hours or less, and see how that goes. Unless by some miracle we manage to extend a nap.

I know there's probably nothing new that you can say, just feels good to be able to share how we're doing. Thanks for listening  :)

 

Offline Bryony

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Re: Getting worse not better - help!!
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2007, 08:46:50 am »
momofiz - your nap wind-down sounds great! 

I can't think of anything different to suggest right now  :-\   other than encouraging you to keep going with trying to get on top of any OT. 
 
But last night - if she resettled herself one of the times - that's fantastic!  It shows she can do it which is really important...

HUGS!  And of course we are all hear to listen and support eachother on this site  :-*

Bryony


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Offline mumofiz

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Re: Getting worse not better - help!!
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2007, 09:51:23 am »
Thank you

just want to report a successful nap extension - yahoo  ;D

She eventually fell asleep this morning at 8.15 only to wake 1/2 hour later, no way I was having that after such a crappy night! So I held her arms and legs and shhhd and after 5 mins crying she fell into a restless light sleep, kept my hands on her to support her through the next 10mins and she slept for 50 more mins.  Yay!!


Offline Bryony

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Re: Getting worse not better - help!!
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2007, 09:53:50 am »
Well done, that's great!!!  :D :D :D

Bryony


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