I really messed things up now!!

[DebLillian]

Pauline- Thanks for stopping by!  I am nearly positive that you are right- she is getting waaaay too much daytime sleep to get more than 10hrs a night.  But she can only handle short A-times so she can't really do 1 nap and shortening her naps made her OT (which gave us NWs ).  I feel totally stuck in a rut at this point.  We did try w2s... it worked once and then hasn't again. 

Here is where our schedule currently is:
4:30wake...pd/wiwo until 5:15ish
9am nap (1-1.5hrs)
1:30/2 nap (1-1.5hrs)
6:30/7pm bed

I almost feel willing to deal with the EWs so long as we can ward off the OT monster (and NWs) but at the same time, it sure would be nice to sleep past 4:30.

How is everyone else doing?

[smum]

Hi Deb:

     Just want to share with you my recent experiences. I don't think they are successful but I feel reduing daytime sleep and earlier bedtime helps my lo to erase some OT and to sleep more than 10hrs at night, but a little helpful with EW.

      My lo's original routine is quite similar with yours.  He sleeps only 10hrs at night and his daytime sleep is about 2hr20min-2hr50min. I followed Layla's suggestion to put his am nap off until 10:00 and limit it for only 45-50min, then offer him his pm nap 3hr10min-20mins later. As you know, his pm nap usually ends up 45mins again. I can't help but move his bedtime earlier. Because his daytime sleep reduces so much (from 2hr40min to 1hr30-50min), his night sleep hence increases from 10hrs to 11hrs/11hrs20min/11hrs40min. The theory of robbing Peter (daytime sleep) to pay Paul (night time sleep) works on my lo. Although his daytime naps are not good, his prlonged night sleep helps him erase some OT. When he wakes up, he is better rested. My routine is still "floating" now and I know 12hr45min-13hr is the maximum sleep for my lo. Interestingly, he will do the math himself. If his daytime sleep is less, his night time sleep is more. That's it.

I find that if my lo's daytime sleep is equal to or more than 2.5hrs, his night time sleep won't be more than 10hrs at night and his NW is longer. So I suggest that you may gradually reduce lilian's daytime sleep to around 2hrs and then see if it helps. When her night sleep is prolonged, she won't sleep so much during the daytime naturally. I also find that he will cut his am nap to 35-40min himself when his night sleep is good. But my lo's naps are not in good shapes yet. He had a 35-40min am nap and a 1hr-1hr10min pm nap today. So his bedtime is earlier again. (7pm)

Or you may want to try later bedtime. You can put off your lo's original bedtime 15mins for a week to see if it will help her to wake later. My friend told me it will take 1 month to move lo's bedtime till 1hr later. All the cycle will be shifted, too. HTH

[Lippy Chick]

I don't know if this helps, but here's what Alice's routine looks like.  She wakes anywhere from 6.30-8am (sorry).

7am (taking the average-ish) wake, toilet,
7.20 breakfast then finish off with a bottle
8.10-ish toilet and dressed.
11.00am lunch. (I know a very early lunch for us)
11.25 start wind down (two stories, then about 5/10 mins of her Baby IQ DVD)
11.45 in her cot asleep.  (she tends to go straight to sleep) Sleep anywhere from 1 hr 15 - 2 hrs (not letting her sleep past this now)
1 - 1.45pm wake and toilet,
20 mins later snack and finish off with bottle.
4-ish another snack (usually quite small as we don't want to ruin her dinner)
5.30pm dinner.
6pm bath
6.30 milk
7 - 7.15pm bed. (depends how long milk takes) 

She used to go to bed around 7.30 - 7.45 and we moved it further back and now this time works for us.  She didn't sleep through until she dropped the morning nap and now she sleeps through 6 nights out of 7.  I can understand you need to keep two naps.  Have you though about making the morning one about 30 mins in length just enough to get her through to the afternoon one.  You might find that she sleeps better in the pm.  A friend of mine suggested that to me when Alice was only doing 45 min at a time.  When we started doing that her pm nap was better.  I'm not sure if any of this will help.  Just thought I would offer what we have done that seems to have worked for us.  Most days anyway.

Have you gone back to the book to see if it offers any suggestions?

Pauline

[DebLillian]

Pauline,  yup- we tried to shorten the am nap and it was a nightmare.  It made the pm nap short as well and caused her to be really OT.  We tried this on two separate occasions for a week each (once a long time ago) and both ended up where we are.  I am impressed with Alice's A-times.  Lillian gets so sleepy after 3 hrs and is delirious after 4.

Smum-  No matter how much I rob the daytime sleep she still seems to only get 10 hrs at night... but it is certainly something I'm going to try again.

Thanks everyone for all your thoughts.  It's quite the puzzle to solve.  Honestly, my goal at this point is just for her to sleep 10.5hrs at night (7-5:30) which seems like an attainable goal and then after we've moved (which we're doing in a month) perhaps I'll try the 2-1 shift again.

[smum]

Hi Deb:

I really want to cry loudly now. Robbing doesn't work any more. Last night my lo slept until 5:30. This morning I put off his am nap and hope he could sleep 1.5hrs. But I messed it up and he only slept 40min. If I put him down at 1:10, he may or may not sleep more than 1hr and I will have to put him down before or at 6:20. I can understand your frustration. Earlier bedtime sometimes just don't work. His wake up time has tendency to become earlier, too. So I know what's your fear. Sleep training causes my lo's nap to be a mess. I feel so sorry to my lo. I agree it is such a hard puzzle to solve. Have you ever tried long am nap (1.5hr) and short pm nap (45min)? It worked several times for me. Now I'm also contented if my lo can sleep 10.5hrs at night. What an unpleasant beginning! 

[DebLillian]

Smum-  Cry, sweetie, cry!  It can truly help sometimes   Sometimes I just feel like I spend so much time worrying and tweaking her schedule that I forget to enjoy her.  When things got really bad for us I did two things: 1.  Put her down when she was tired regardless of time and 2.  Went about life, took her out and let her sleep in the sling rather than her crib.  We will definitely do long am and shortened pm when it comes time to sleep train again.  Lillian seems to feel better if she can take a proper am nap.  If I mess with that nap she is off all day long (and her pm nap is usually just off).  I have to say, it's all a balance of trying to push her in the right direction while avoiding frustration from sleep training.  Because the training that we started this mess with (shortening am naps) caused NWs and a whole slew of OT behaviors I am now realizing how thankful I should be for ONLY having to deal with an early start to the day.  I will gladly get up at 5am and let her nap as her body needs so long as she sleeps straight through the night and is happy during the day.