put in crib and DD starts babbling like crazy and acts totally awake...OT???

[LaurieJ]

Lately my DD (who just turned 6 months yesterday) has been becoming very alert right when I lay her down in her crib for nap time - she starts "talking" like crazy and seems as if she's already had her whole nap when it hasn't even started.  Is this a sign of OT or something else?  She definitely shows signs of being tired before hand - I try to take her into her room after I've seen a couple of yawns or eye rubbing.  I've been making sure that she is not OS before nap time (we do high energy/active play at beginning of A time and then calm things and then songs or just holding/carrying for the last bit of A time until tired signs come) and we always do 3 of the S's (no more swaddling) before nap time.  Should I be putting her in her crib earlier?  We always go in to her room, dim and turn off the lights, turn on the music, and I sit with her on my shoulder with paci for 3-5 minutes then I lay her in her crib.  When she starts talking like this and seems totally awake should I just leave her in her crib to talk for a while and see if she'll eventually fall asleep or should I stay in there with her to try and get her back to drowsy?  She has been successful at falling asleep on her own after this maybe a couple of times but usually she'll go from talking like crazy for about 15 or 20 min. to slight squawks and then fussing after long enough. We are also working on extending her naps which is another issue.  Sometimes she'll sleep straight through for about 1 1/2 hours but more often than not she'll wake up after 45 min.  I've been trying W2S for the last week and sometimes it works, sometimes not. 

Any help would be GREAT!!!  Thank you so much!!!

[brenda2]

hey
how long are her A times?  she may be ready for slightly longer A times, especially if she seems awake when it's nap time and then only does 45 min, which often means UT.   can you post your routine?

at around 7 mo most LOs drop the catnap so she may be gearing up for that...

if you put her down and she is not crying i would leave her in her room by herself as long as she's happiyl talking/chatting, even if she starts to fuss just leave her and give her a chance to calm down by herself and go to sleep by herself.  if she cries a "mummy i need you " cry for sure go in, but otherwise it's fine to stay out.  she needs to learn to fall asleep on her own.

[LaurieJ]

In the morning she only seems to make it 1 1/2 hours - 1 and 45 min. of A time but then the rest of the day 2 hours or a little more sometimes (and due to her only making it through 1 1/2 hours in the morning she has to have more A time after S time due to it not being time to eat again...which I posted about on the breastfeeding board as a question before).  She definitely shows tired signs and seems very tired and ready for a nap BEFORE I put her in her crib but then once she's in there it's like - bling!!! I'm awake!  Here is our routine:

6:30 wake up and change diaper (change before feed due to slight reflux)
6:45 E (only takes 15 min. for E due to overactive let down)
7:00-8:15 A
8:15-9:45 S
9:45-10:30 A
10:30 E
10:45-12:00 A
12:00 -1:45 S
1:45-2:30 - more A
2:30 E
2:45-4:00 A
4:00-5:00 S
5:00 solids
5:20ish-6:00 A
6:00 E
6:15-bedtime routine
6:45 bed
9ish-DF
(I don't know if this has any affect on her napping or activity time, but I'll post it just in case...she's been waking up for a feed around 2:30am which I've been trying to ween her off of slowly and last night she woke up at 4am and talked until about 4:20 then started squawking and then hungry cry so I fed her for only 3 min. just to take the edge off her hunger and not wanting to fill her up then put her back in bed awake and she fell asleep - stayed asleep until 7 today which is later than normal).

Should I try to extend her A time each day slightly in order to get that first A time longer?  It would be nice to get it stretched out so that her EASY isn't thrown off so much due to it not being time to eat after her first nap.  She also doesn't nap for 2 hours so that adds a little more time before it's time to eat.  I've been trying to extend her naps, but they are usually around 1 1/2 hours (sometimes it'll be 2 hours).

[brenda2]

your routine looks great, but i think she's ready for more A time.  she's waking in the night and chatting as well as not going to sleep right away for naps, which both lead me to think she's ready for a bit longer A time.  at 6 mo A time should be 2 to 2.5 hours (first  A time is often shorter).  their sleepy cues get unreliable as they get older too, so just because she's rubbing eyes etc doesn't necessarily mean she's tired yet and so you can still stretch it out a bit without getting OT.  also, a 1.5 hour nap is great, no need to extend to a 2 hour nap.  you may get a 2 hour nap just be virtue of extending the A times, which is also fine.  i would aim for 2 hour A time first, then 2.5 hour A times between nap 1 and nap 2 and between nap 2 and nap 3 and then 1.5 hour A time after catnap.

i would try this:
6:30 wake and E (15 min later is fine)
8:30-10 S
10:30 E
12:30 - 2 S
2:30 E
4:30 - 5:15 S
6:30 E
6:45 bed

also...on an unrelated topic, if you're just starting solids and doing just 1 meal it should be at breakfast.  otherwise their tummies can get upset and interrupt night time sleep.

[LaurieJ]

Thank you so much.  I am going to try that starting today.  Do you think I should try to extend the A time all at once or should I be trying to extend it in little bits over a few days? 

Yes, I started her solids in the evenings because I had read that if you're breastfeeding feeding solids at night is good since that's when the milk supply is the lowest.  But then I read about feeding them the solids in the AM rather (in BWSAYP) due to upset tummy possibilities.  So, I'm going to switch it to feeding her in the AM.  I should probably check the eating board for this, but if you don't mind me asking, when/what is the sign that you should start feeding them at other meals too (like an amount they are eating or at a certain age)?  I'll get on the eating solids board to check more on this. 

Thanks for your help!!

[brenda2]

try to extend the A time slowly by 10 min every 3 days until you reach the goal.  definately not all at once because you don't want her to get OT.   she doesn't really have far to go to reach 2 hours first thing and 2.5 after that though so you probably can do it in maybe 3 or 4 days.  if you get a short 30 min nap that means the previous A time was too long and she was OT in which case you would go back to shorter A times until it was sorted out.

we started solids at about 5.5 months with 1 meal, then at 6 months she was doing 2 meals until about 7 months, then 3 meals after that.  she did have some trouble if she had rice cereal in the evening...i'm still careful about how much of it she has.  i'm not sure if there are signs for how many meals when...it may just be an age thing, or how hungry they seem.  the milk should always be given first as it's the most important in terms of fat and calories, it will fill them up longer.  food is just for practice really until closer to a year.  so if she seems happy with 1 meal no need to rush to feed her more often.  i'm not an expert on that!

[LaurieJ]

Thank you so much for your help!!  She did great this morning staying up longer but then I went in around the 40 min. mark to do W2S because I've been needing to do that these last few days due to her waking up after 45 min. (probably due to UT now that I realize) and when I went in there and put my hand on her she woke right up!!  So then she wouldn't go back to sleep.  We had to go in to the Dr. for her 6 month appt. and so I tried to let her try to get back to sleep as long as I could but she wasn't going back to sleep and then finally it was time to get ready to go so I had to get her up.  Do you think she was waking up after 45 min. because she wasn't having enough A time??  I'll work on upping the other 2 A times over these next days.  Hopefully that'll do it!   Thank you again!!!

[brenda2]

you're welcome, i hope you get some long naps!  i'm sending you sleepy vibes! 

45 min naps can be UT or OT, but in your case with such short A times i'm guessing UT.  30 min naps definitely mean OT. 

if you want to try w2s and she wakes up at 45 min you should go in at about 30 to 35 min into the nap.  when i tried it i hung out in her room for a nap to see when she started stirring to wake up, you want to catch her before this.  for me w2s worked only about half the time...

[LaurieJ]

Ok.  I'll keep working on it and see if it all gets sorted out.  It seems to be helping to also put her down in her crib earlier (less time sitting with her) to help avoid the "back to alertness" state when I put her down.  I definitely think the extra activity time will continue to help too.  So, if she wakes up after 45 min. but she is not crying should I just let her be (even if that means 1/2 hour plus) or does that mean she is UT and needs more A time - then do I just get her up and know that I need to stretch out the A time more or do I try to get her back to sleep...I've tried the pu/pd for this before and she would just talk away and then eventually get frustrated at it and THAT would make her cry after long enough - I don't think that's what it is meant for. 

[brenda2]

hi.  yes keep trying to stretch those A times a bit.

how often are you getting 45 min naps?

if she wakes early but is happy it is probably because she had enough sleep because she wasn't awake long enough to be tired enough before the nap.  if this happens you can do 2 things:  leave her in the crib if she's happily chatting away and maybe she will go back to sleep after a bit of chatting...if it turns to crying THEN you can do pu/pd...or just get her up and try again for the next A time.  if she does do a short nap the next A time will not be long though, maybe only 2 hours because short naps are not as restful.

you're right, you don't do pu/pd if they're happy.  you only do it if they're crying and then only as a last resort after you've tried comforting in the crib.  if she's happy or just fussing or mantra crying it's fine to leave her in the crib.

when i was getting some 45 min naps i found (after a week of trying to extend each nap)  that if she woke happy there was no way she was going back to sleep but if she woke crying then most of the time she would go back to sleep with shh pat and maybe pu/pd.  so personally if she wakes up happy i would just get her up and try again for the next nap.

does that answer your question?

[LaurieJ]

I would say she wakes up after 45 min. more than 1/2 the time but usually she'll go back to sleep for another 45 min. or sometimes more (but often it was taking quite a while to get her to go back to sleep - and I definitely think this was due to her being UT due to the short A time).

I agree - I have found too that it's not worth the "struggle"/long amount of time of trying to get her back to sleep if she woke up happy...she's definitely ready to get up and then I know I have to extend the A time.  That's the part I wasn't realizing before since I thought she was tired but then she'd sleep a short time and wake up happy.  I try letting her be for a little while at least just in case she'll fall back asleep which she has done sometimes but usually if she's jabbering away she's done!
   

[LaurieJ]

Also, I didn't want to speak too soon before seeing how her nap went this morning, but after yesterday morning I haven't gone in to do the w2s and she has done great sleeping through (she is about 5 min. away from a 2 hour straight nap).  She did also get her shots yesterday morning though so that may have to do with the sleeping too.  I'm hoping though that with the extended A time and me not going in there she's doing great on her own.

[brenda2]

sounds like you've made some progress!!     that's great, yay for a long nap!!

hope it continues, keep us posted!