I am at my WITS END WITH SLEEP ISSUES! ahhhhh

[Laurella]

I have twin girls.  They are 8 months old (born at 36 weeks).  We have several sleep issues (have for a LONG TIME).  I have posted a couple of topics, but have had no success.  Here is our routine:

7am.  wake and BF
8am.  soilds
9am - 11am.  nap (sometimes this is only a 30 - 45min nap)
11am. wake and BF
12pm. solids
130pm. - 200pm nap (almost always a 30 minute nap)
200pm wake and BF
430pm - 450 or 500pm (only 20 - 30 minute nap)
500pm solids
730pm bedtime. (wake 3 or 4 times and need resettling - usually sh/pat - before sleep through the night - sometimes they get so worked up that we have to pick them up but I think that might be because of teething?)

we still Aussie swaddle because I need their arms out of the way so I can pat their chests at the same time (one of me, two of them!)

Our wind down is swaddles, go into room, darken room, sing a lullabye (3 minutes), lay down (repeat with other girl).  We've been doing this for months and months.

Issue #1) obviously the afternoon nap isn't going well - 30 minutes isn't even a complete sleep cycle.
Issue #2) they don't go to sleep well on their own - they almost ALWAYS make a huge fuss during wind down.  After the 2nd lullabye they know we are going to lay them down and they start crying at which time we do sh/pat until they are asleep...we've been doing this for 2 to 3 MONTHS!
Issue #4) they wake 3 or 4 times before settling for the night.

Sometimes when they are asleep they SCREAM out of nowhere and won't quit crying.  It's not a pain cry, a tired cry, a fussy cry - it's a blood curdling scream...can't figure what that's about.

If I try keeping them awake longer to extend A time, they fall asleep before I'm done the 2nd lullabye - and I feel that's wrong because then they're definitely not learning independant sleep.

I've tried sh/pat and W2S to extend their afternoon nap and it doesn't work for us.

I read somewhere that 30 minute naps were a sign of OT - but for 8 month olds (do we still adjust their age at this point...7 months adjusted) isn't 2 to 2.5hrs of A time ok??  what the heck?

I AM SO TIRED OF SLEEP ISSUES!  please please help me sort this out!

They've been teething off and on for the last 2 months.

Thanks,
Amy

[marensmama]

Hi there!  I have to start by saying your girls are TOO CUTE!!  Ohmygosh, they look like such cheeky little monkeys!    And how you get anything done with twins is beyond me - very admirable!

OK, back to business.  I think what is happening is that they aren't getting enough A time in that first cycle in the morning and then are OT for the rest of the day.  At this age (7-8 months) they should be able to handle 3 hrs of A time.  Because they're used to short A time/short naps, they seem to need to go down earlier and they don't get much rest, so the cycle continues.  I'd start fresh tomorrow, go by their cues and try to extend that A time as much as you can.  If you see they're getting tired, don't try to do too much too soon, just 15 minutes extra A time, but they might surprise you.

Also, some babies don't like a long wind-down.  My DD1 liked 3 lullabies, DD2 likes to turn the blinds and be swaddled and then that's it.  I'd try shortening the wind-down.  They are trying to tell you something when they are screaming before sleep.  Sometimes they're OT, sometimes they're saying, 'But mommy I'm not ready to sleep yet!'. 

I think they are OT by the end of the day because those short naps aren't restorative.  That's what causes the difficulty resettling and probably the scream while they're asleep.  Also, they are probably ready to get rid of that catnap (going through that myself with my LO right now).  Try the longer A time and shorter wind-down and see how that goes.  Also, the pat/shh is a great tool to calm them, but it becomes a prop if it's done to sleep.  Try doing it until they're calm but not quite asleep and then leave the room.

HTH, let me know if I can clarify anything for you.  We're working on sleep issues of our own, so my brain is a bit muddled right now.

[Laurella]

that's what I thought I would try - extending the morning A time.  My only uncertainty with that is that the girls will definately fall asleep (or close to it) by the time I'm done singing.  I've been struggling for so long with independant sleep (they had colic for 2 months so everything pretty much went out the window during that time).  If I try a shorter wind down - they won't settle.  As soon as they get tired, they get fussy.  If they are too tired, they fuss during the first lullabye and are sleeping by the end of the second.  It's so difficult because if they both get out of hand, I'm pretty much looped.  They definitely don't have good "state" control.  Even in the car, if it's close to nap time, they fuss in their seats before going to sleep - I have to turn the music up which always helps.  sigh.  twins.  but I think right now, if I could pick one, I'd pick a longer aft. nap over working on independant sleep.  If I start wind down with Laurenne at 1hr50min after she woke (first thing in the mornign), she's drowsy and goes into her crib sleepy and falls asleep pronto.  But if I wait 2hrs to do the wind down, she's already sleeping by the end of the 2nd lullabye.  Arella isn't as good as Laurenne is at indendant sleep (which isn't saying much!)  I'll increase A time by 10 or 15 minutes every 3 days or so.  Do I just do this for the morning A time?  start with that one?  And do I work on just morning until they can stay awake for 3hrs, then work on the subsequent A times?

thanks for your help!

[marensmama]

Try extending all of the A times, but if they short nap, then you have to shorten the next A time (from what you're aiming at) so they don't get OT.  If longer A time means a shorter wind-down because she falls asleep, then you're on the right track and need to tailor the wind-down to what they need. 

Can you extend a short nap with pat/shh or is that impossible with twins?

[Laurella]

if I do a shorter wind down, I will have to do sh/pat with them because they won't be calm (there's no in between with them when they're tired, they're either crying or asleep...there's no calm unless they're sleeping.)

I have tried and tried and tried and TRIED to extend short naps with sh/pat - it doesn't work...it's not because there's two of them (I figured out how to position their cribs and my chair so that i can sh/pat on their chests at the same time - neither child has liked patting on the back), it's because it just doesn't work for either of them.  I've also tried w2s and that was unsuccessful as well.

and then they're teething too - which makes them extra irritable - they are NOT breezing through teething like some kids - they each have 6 teeth already, working on 2 to 4 more each!  yoy

[marensmama]

Doing shh/pat with a shorter wind-down is fine, and will teach them to self-soothe as long as you stop it before they fall asleep.  If they go from crying to sleeping, there must be a window where they are in between, even if it's just a breath.  Try to get them to that point and let them take it from there.  Or gradually reduce the loudness/frequency/length of patting and shhing.  My DD2 never liked the patting, so I just keep my hand on her chest without moving it.  Maybe you could try slowing the patting as they're getting to that happy place and then just rest your hand there and then have that happen sooner and sooner.

That's a lot of teeth!  My DD1 had 8 at this point, but DD2 has none yet (and I had 6 by 4 months, so we're all different!!)

W2S doesn't work for all babies, although there is a post about it in the Naps FAQ section, with different suggestions to make it work.  TBH, I think you get the A time worked out and get rid of the catnap and you'll have great naps.  Did you know there's also a multiples board here too?  I'm sure there's lots of issues that arise when you're dealing with two babies, but it seems like you're doing a great job of handling it!

[Laurella]

well yesterday they both had 2hrs 45min A time in the morning and then slept well for their first nap (like they always do) and then they had 2hrs 45min A time for the 2nd cycle and Laurenne only slept 30 minutes (tried extending with sh/pat and it didn't work) but Arella slept 1hr 20min (usually sleeps only 30min).  they both had a catnap to get them thru the rest of the day.  Today, this is how it's going:

E 6am
A
S 9 till 10.30
E 10.30am
A
S 1.15pm - 2.50pm



I think they will need a catnap to make it to bedtime...or would you put them to sleep at 6pm.  I find the earlier they go to bed, the earlier they wake in the morning (but they've always had a catnap)...I'm not sure what to do!  I do not want to wake up at 4am tomorrow morning!

Also, for their second nap today they both woke up after 30min but I was able to sh/pat them thru to their next sleep cycle...will it take time for them to get used to a longer afternoon nap?  It seems like they're never going to sleep right through and will always need help - or do you think they will eventually learn how to get through the 30min bump?  Before they were UT before that nap because of the lack of A time in the morning, but now that I"m keeping them up so much more, are they OT and that's why they woke this afternoon?

big sigh.!!!



thanks Nicole!
Amy

[marensmama]

Hmmm... I'm kind of in the same boat as you right now.  My DD2 is waking at 5:30 am and if I don't give her a catnap we can't make it through until bedtime but putting her to bed early reinforces the early wake time.  So, what I have been doing is if she's up at 5:30, she has an intentional 1/2 hr at 7:30, then I wake her at 8 and try to do blocks of 3 hrs of A time.  I wake her up from one nap at 1.5 hrs and let her sleep 2 hrs for one of them.  So she's still getting two long naps plus a catnap but the catnap is in the morning.  That being said, I don't think that's the direction you need to go unless you put them to bed at 6 tonight and they EW tomorrow.

If it were me, I'd put them to bed at 6.  If they wake early tomorrow, then lesson learned, they will have a catnap the next day if they can't make it through.  I'm finding it really hard to get rid of the catnap completely this time, although my DD1 did it by 6 months.  It sounds like Laurenne needed a slightly slower introduction to the longer A times than her sister did.  Are they different temperaments?

I think they will learn how to get through the 30 minute bump once they adjust to the longer A time.  It's great that you got them through it, and both together, again, that's just amazing!

[Laurella]

lol unfortunately they are the same temperaments...touchy/spirited - we NEVER have a boring day!  yoy.  They did EW today - 5:15am.  Arella slept 1hr45min first nap, but Laurenne only slept 30min (very unusual for the first nap - although I tried to unswaddle one arm from their aussie swaddles - that could be why she woke up)...Arella had two more 30min naps after the first good one and Laurenne's second nap was 30min but her 3rd nap was 1hr30min...so at the end of the day they were back on the same schedule (Arella sleeping by 6:45pm...Laurenne by 7pm)  Something was bothering them today (teeth I'm guessing) because they were cranky and winey since they woke (unlike their usual smiley selves...when they're awake they are usually so sweet!).

tomorrow's a new day - thank the Lord!

I was wondering why you give your dd a catnap in the morning instead of at night...if they EW tomorrow, maybe I'll try that..

I'm also wondering what the difference is in babies at 8months vs 12months?  We have had a really tough time with our girls since they were born - it has NEVER been easy.  I really do feel discouraged and sometimes I just don't know how I'm going to get through it.  I know I will but it's really tough somedays.  It helps me to think that it will get better...when should I expect things to get easier?  in five years when they're in school?!  gosh sometimes I can't wait for those days to come!

oh - and by your name it says "showing appretiation"...what exactly does that mean?  how do people "show appreciation".

thanks!
Amy

Amy

[marensmama]

Sorry today was so rough!  It's possible they were just OT from the EW (makes for  long day for everyone!)  Hayden is touchy/spirited too, thank goodness there is just one of her!   I don't even know how you would get out of the house with two different EASYs going on!  I guess that's why the powers that be gave me singletons!  That being said, I think their needs are different, and you need to remember to give the short-napper less A time.  Again, I don't know how you would get out of the house, though.  Maybe on the multiples board there is more info or support in terms of arranging EASY routines to make life bearable. 

Hayden is also still swaddled.  I tried 10 days ago to go cold turkey - weaning one arm at a time didn't work for us, but in retrospect, neither did cold turkey!!  We now have a new set of NWs and EWs that we're working on, and she's back in the swaddle.  Today she was awake at 1, 4, 5 and 6:20...  I think it's the touchy part that needs swaddling until beyond a reasonable age!   I'm hoping her future husband doesn't mind wrapping her up for the night!

I believe the morning cat nap is just a measure to get them through to the end of the day, kind of a refresher that you wouldn't give every day, just after the occasional EW.   After a certain stage, giving them the evening catnap makes them UT for the night and they tend to have NWs.  We're past that stage, but not at the point where I can give her two naps in a 13.5 hour day.

I don't know when things will get easier for you.  I hear with twins that the first year is the hardest.  But TBH, I'm finding my older DD's behavior more challenging and frustrating than any baby issue like naps or NWs (she's just about 3 now, and a VERY independent girl).   

And the showing appreciation thing means how many people have thanked you (by clicking on the thank-you button you see under everyone else's names) for your input/support/etc. 

Let me know how tomorrow goes!

[Laurella]

today went well...but I'm not sure what to do about tonight.  They woke at 6am (after a night of NWs....I'm sure due to teething) this is how their day was...

E 6:00
A
S 8:50 - 10:45
E 10:45
A
S 1:45 - 3:30 (with w2s and sh/pat)
E 3:30
A
S 6:15 - 6:30
E 6:30
A
S 8:30

they couldn't make it thru to bedtime without that catnap, and an early bedtime means ew for us...so I gave them a 15min catnap at 6:15ish and then I'm thinking to put them to bed at 8:30...is that too late or too soon after the catnap?  this is hard to juggle because they're not quite ready to drop the catnap...I'm not sure how long A time should be between the catnap and bedtime....

thanks!!
Amy

[Laurella]

further to my last post...Laurenne actually didn't end up going to sleep...dh was in their room when I was posting my last msg and I guess she didn't get to sleep...so Laurenne will have an earlier bedtime - and Arella a later one because she got 15min...

ya, so not sure at all about this catnap!  I don't want to give it to them in the morning because it seems like their first nap of the day is the easiest one (the most predictable and its when I get some time for myself...so I really don't want to play with that one)...I'm afraid that a catnap in the morning would wreck their first long nap...

how is it working with the catnap in the morning for you guys??

[marensmama]

Sorry I didn't get back to you until just now, my internet crapped out as I was trying to reply to your post.

For the last two days we've had decent wake-up times (6:30), so we haven't needed that morning catnap to make it through until bedtime.  Thank goodness.  It's a bit radical and I never knew how much it was helping since we still had the NWs and everything.  Last night she was only up once at 3:00 (well she woke at 10:30 too, but settled herself), so that was a rare treat.

Enough about me, though!  Looks like the girls naps were great!  Good work!  If it were me, I would have put them down for the night at 6:15 or 6:30.  They're not going to get OT in 15 minutes and need to get used to no catnap.  The 15 minute catnap was a smart idea in theory, but I don't think it would be restorative enough to warrant another 2 hours of A time, I'd still aim for a 7:00 or 7:30 bedtime, although it's too late for that so you'll have to see how it worked out for you in the morning. 

Keep me posted! 

[Laurella]

it didn't work out well at all   lol.  Laurenne had been up for 4 1/2 hrs by the time she fell asleep - and Arella was up for 2hrs 45 min, had a 20min catnap and then was up for 1hr45min before she went to sleep for the night.  both girls slept and hour and a half and then woke constantly last night - every hour or so...all night.  I thought that if they made it an hour and a half without waking, then they would be good for the night...If they were OT, wouldn't they have not lasted that first hour and a half without waking?  I know both girls are cutting teeth..(anyday now) so that could have played a part.  They were crusty this morning too.  They are having a good nap now, so that's good!

I'm still not sure what to do about the catnap...if I put them to bed around 6:30 - they will be up by 4:30 (ten hours is very very typical for us)...and if I give them a catnap in the morning, I am very sure that their first long nap will no longer be good...I'm sure they'd have the same problems with it that they're having right now at their second long nap!

How long does your dd stay up before bedtime...3hrs?  What does a typical day look like for you guys???

[marensmama]

Sounds like definite OT to me.  It's possible that they got through that first cycle fine but woke up when the next one ended.  Usually being unsettled between bedtime and midnight to me indicates OT.

Our good day lately looks like this:
6:30 E, A
9:30 S
11:00 E, A
2:00 S
4:00 E, A
6:30 E
7:00 bedtime

3:00 NW for a feed

Last night she woke up at 1:30 and 5:15 for feeds.  She wanted to stay up for the day but I was so not going to let that happen!!  So I pat/shh'd her back to sleep after I fed her and she slept until 7:30 .

If we do the morning cat nap our day looks like this:
5:00 E, A
7:30 S
8:00 wake (intentional), E, A
10:30 S
12:00 E, A
3:00 S
4:30 E, A
6:30 E
7:00 bed

So what I do is try to keep her daytime sleep about the same in terms of total length, and still reinforce the bedtime as the same time.  Don't ask how well it's working though with all the NW, EW and troubles with reflux and solids.... I don't know what the problem is, I'm just trying to deal on a day to day basis.

Could you pat/shh them back at 4:30 in the morning?  Feed them if need be and then put them back - I forget, are they swaddled?  I'd try it and see, it sends the message that it's not time to get up.  They might be OT from 10 hr nights and surprise you.