playing through naps - unable to pu/pd b/c baby not crying, but also not napping

[bglick]

I'm the mother of a 7.5 month old and have had horrible sleep issues since she was three months. She wakes up several times in the night and only naps in 25 - 30 minute increments two or three times a day. She is very overtired and I am just sick about it, but I feel at a loss as to how to help her. She has definitely used props such as rocking and eating to put herself to sleep, but has never been able to stay asleep. We have tried to break her of the props by trying the pu/pd method and a few other techniques from the baby whisperer. It has worked in terms of not having to feed her to sleep anymore, but three weeks in, we still have several issues...

This is a look at our nights and days:

wake up anywhere from 5:30 - 6:30 and eats. We then play for 1.5- 2 hours and she gives me sleepy signals so I take her up, pull blinds, start white noise, read book etc and then put down. Two things can happen at this time: 1) I set her down and she starts playing happily in crib or she goes down after doing pu/pd for 10 - 30 minutes. If she plays, she will play right through a nap for hours and cry out occasionally, but when I come in to pu, she just starts laughing, so I set her down and we continue this... If she does go down, she will wake up at 25 minutes. The only way I've been able to extend her naps is going in her room after she's been asleep for 20 minutes and putting my hands on her for 25 - 30 minutes to try to keep her sleeping (tip from BW). This works 50% of time. If she wakes anyway after 25 minutes, she is happy and thinks she's napped. As soon as I get her up though, she is sleepy, lethargic and overtired. I don't know how to do the pu/pd method when she's not crying or unhappy after waking?? We do this two to three times a day... she gets, on average 1.5 hours of sleep during the day which I know is way to little.

We have an easier time getting her down at night and have a good set ritual, but she wakes up within 25 - 40 minutes of going down (same as naps) and we have to put her back down. Her sleep after that is fitful with lots of waking and putting herself back down until anywhere from 11:30 - 2am in which she will wake and play/cry for about two hours. Again, we run into the problem of not knowing what to do with her when she's playing pretty happily, but needs to be sleeping. She eats one time (we try to make it until 4am for this feeding).

We have her on the 4 hour eating schedule and try to adhere to EASY, although it is tough b/c there is way more Activity b/c of lack of sleep. I am distraught because I see that my precious little girl is suffering due to being overtired and I don't know how to help her through this and am exhausted myself after so many months of not sleeping more than a few hours a night and spending all day working on naps. What do you do when a child simply won't sleep or stay asleep, is not crying all the time, but is lethargic and clearly in need of more sleep? What do I do about the playing in the crib through naps and in the middle of the night? I would appreciate anyone's advice as I can't seem to come up with the right solutions and am feeling pretty desperate as I know this is not healthy for my daughter...

[brenda2]

hi and welcome to BW!

sounds like you are getting on the right track by breaking her of the props she was using to get to sleep.  this is a great first step    good for you  it can be really hard to get on track after many months of feeding to sleep etc.  it can also take a while to be completely over these props, so keep at it and don't get discouraged.  if you are consistent with your new methods she will get the idea. 

how does DD go to sleep now?  what is your bed and nap time routine?  can you post your routine (or what you did yesterday) in terms of EAS including when she actually fell asleep and when she woke up so i can have a look and get a better idea of it? 

ie:
7 awake and E
9-10 sleep
11 E    etc

at 7.5 mo her A time should be about 3 hours...you mentioned that you're trying for the first nap after only being up for 1.5 hours, and then she does short naps and only 3 naps 30 min each so i'm having a hard time visualising it.   her playing through naps also makes me think she's ready for more A time.  if she were OT she'd be screaming through naps.

if she is still dependent on a prop to go to sleep this may be why she has difficulty getting past the 30 min mark for naps and bedtime.  what do you do when she wakes up?  if she's not crying you're right, you can't do pu/pd.  the best way to deal with it is to let her try to self settle and only intervene when she's crying.

[bglick]

Hi,

Thank you so much for responding. I could really use some advice. I will try to give you a better idea of our schedule and how we got to this point. This is my first baby and I admit that I held her to sleep (except at night) until she was three months old and too big (born 9.5 lbs) to hold in the sling anymore during her naps. On me, she slept great - 2 hour morning, 1.5 afternoon and then a 30 minute nap before bed. She had a startling reflex at this point that was so bad that we could not put her on her back w/o a swaddle... but she was already 16 lbs and breaking out of all her swaddles. Once she could roll over to her tummy, I started trying to put her in her crib. I'll admit that against my gut feeling, we tried letting her cry through some night wakings at about 4 months b/c she was waking every 45 min - 1 hour and no matter what we did, she would not let us set her down. I couldn't do it though as it just felt wrong and she would cry until we came in (not the 30 minutes they tell you it will take). I didn't know what to do, so I started feeding her a little, on the advice of a doctor, to get her tired and signal to her she was to go to bed or take a nap. What ended up happening was that she started to fall asleep while feeding and then I could set her down and she would sleep at night, but naps were always erratic - some were 1.25 hours and others only 25 minutes. I was so relieved she was getting sleep that I let it go on for too long and then finally realized that she was using me as a prop. I did all kinds of research and found the baby whisperer. I read her book on solving problems and everything she says just seems to make sense and I like that I can be with my baby instead of leaving her to cry by herself. I did it for two weeks and my daughter screamed for an 1 - 2 hours every night for 14 days. Naps were a bit longer, but only because I went up and put my hands on her back from 20 - 50 minutes into a nap. Even then, she sometimes woke up and when I tried not going in, she always woke up. So, the problem wasn't resolved, but it was better. The thing we noticed is that she does not seem to have a self - soothing mechanism. She won't take a pacifier or a lovey.  Then, we took a vacation and everything got worse and she reverted back to waking every hour in the night and no naps. I've now been back a week from vacation and she is napping 25 minutes again and waking several times in the night. Instead of crying, she is playing in her crib. We are trying the pu/pd method, but it seems like she's just adapted to it and is using the crying to get us to come in with her, but then just playing - it's weird and I have no idea what I'm supposed to do with that??? She has just learned to go from laying down to sitting up and also cut her first tooth yesterday, so there are lots of changes, but she still needs sleep...

This is obviously really hard on me to be up at night all hours and then the whole day is spent trying to get her to sleep and stay asleep to no avail, but my anxiety stems from feeling like she is not going to be able to thrive and feel as happy without being rested. I feel as if this could be damaging her and I'm so worried about it. I know that she is OT b/c on days where she gets rest, she is a different child then when she doesn't. She is gregarious, smiley and interactive on restful days and nights and completely expressionless and kind of 'deadpan' on the many days she does not nap. It is very noticeable to my whole family and worrisome.

Here is our day and night starting this morning:

7:30 - Awake
7:30 - Feed
7:30 - 9:30 - play until starts to rub eyes
9:30 - nap ritual and into the crib
9:30 - 10:00 - she plays and cries off and on (this is when I go in b/c she's crying and she will just start to laugh or smile)
10:15 - I finally get her to sleep with pu/pd
11:10 - awake (I had to keep her asleep by putting hands on back)
11:30 - feed solids and breast fed right after
11:30 - 2:30 - play
2:30 - go up for nap
2:30 - 3:45 - plays in crib, but is rubbing eyes and yawning the whole time (again we play the game where she cries to get me in there)
3:45 - feed and then do pu/pd to finally get down
4:10 - Awake and crying until I pu and then acts happy
4:10 - 5:30 - Play
5:30 - feed solids, bathe and ready for bed
6:30 - breast feed and put in bed
6:30 - 7:15 plays and cries off and on in crib
7:15 - pu/pd to get to sleep
8:00 - awake again - pu/pd to sleep

We didn't get to the third nap since she played through the second one. She will wake again between midnight and 3 and play/cry for 1 - 2 hours off and on as she has done every night for the last week). Then we feed around 3 - 4 and then back to sleep usually until 6am (today was the latest she has ever slept).

On average, I would say she gets 11.5 hours of sleep per 24 hours which doesn't seem to be enough. I really look forward to your thoughts, suggestions etc. Thanks in advance!!

[brenda2]

hi
sounds like you and she have been through a lot!  it's hard when so many changes come at once to a LO and it does take time for them to learn how to self soothe and learn how to go and stay asleep.  so stay consistent and stick with it!  she has never been a great sleeper, so it may take a little longer for her to catch on and it will be hard but worth it in the end.  i think you have come to the right place for help, the techniques i learned on here are wonderful and do really work 

teething is hard, my Lo is a great sleeper and teeth even threw her off and caused NWs so keep that in mind until the teeth have popped.  also vacations are tough and it took us several weeks to get back on track, espeically if there's a time change.  consistency is key!

i agree she's not getting enough sleep in a 24 hour period.  she should be getting about 11-12 hours at night and 3 hours during the day.

do you know what temperament she is? 

this is the routine i think you should be aiming for:

7 awake and BF(i chose this time, adjust to whatever time she wakes up...couting A time is a much better way to plan naps/ feeds than going with the time on the clock iykwim)
8 solids
10-11:30 sleep
11:30 BF
12:30 solids
2:30-4 sleep
4 BF
5 solids
6:45 BF
7 bedtime
10 DF
maybe 1 overnight feed, but if she takes a good DF then she may not need an overnight feed...you know her best.

so i would aim for a 3 hour A time first thing and between each nap if she takes a long nap.  if she does at least 1 nap over an hour then 2 naps in a day is fine.  it may be that she needs less sleep than average (but still more than she's getting).  if she does a shorter nap then you would reduce the next A time and try for sleep a little earlier and you can move bedtime up too.  from your description of the first nap yesterday i'd say she wasn't tired enough to go down when you first put her down.  she didn't fall asleep until she had been up 2 hours 45 min and then only took a 1 hour nap which indicates she was UT...not tired enough to take a longer nap.  so i would really extend this first A time and see if this helps.

as for techniques...first she needs to be having appropriate A time.  then do your bedtime routine and put her down and leave the room.  if she plays leave her.  if she mantra  cries leave her to self settle.   if she cries like "mommy i need you in here now!!!!!"  go in and comfort in the crib.  if she escalates more and is really crying pick her up but keep her horizontal, no rocking.  you can hum or shhh or say sleepy time or whatever you say.  as soon as she stops crying, switches to mantra crying, struggles against you or 2 min is up put her down.  put her all the way down.  if she is still crying or starts again pick her up again and repeat.  if you put her all the way down in the crib and she's calm you can either stay in the room and leave a hand on her and shhh or sit on the floor out of sight and shhh or leave the room.  if she cries again repeat.  try for 45 min, if she's still not sleeping take her out and take a short break and then back at it to try again.  be very consistent with the pu/pd and she'll get it.  treat every struggle for nap or bed and every NW the same way (unless you're going to feed at a NW)  she has to learn that she's not going to "win" and doesn't get cuddles or food or to come out of the room until she's slept.

there's a sticky in a FAQ in general sleep "special sleep interview with tracy"...it explains a lot too

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=451.0

HTH but let me know if you have any other questions...keep us posted.

[bglick]

Thanks again for your second response and the article. All are helpful and we kept her up three hours this morning and fed her according to your schedule. She woke up at 5:45, so our day started early, but she went down for her first nap no problem and slept 1 hour 15 minutes with the help of us putting our hand on her back from the 25 - 40 minute time period of nap. The second nap has not gone so well. We waited 2.5 hours from her first nap and then started the wind down because she was rubbing her eyes like crazy. Once again, the second we put her in the crib, she started playing and played for 1.5 hours, occasionally crying for us to come in, but as soon as we did, she just started laughing. It has become a game for her and I have no clue how to rectify it so she knows the crib is for her to sleep in. Anyway, this led up to our next feeding, so I got her out and fed her and then did pu/pd to get her to sleep which only took about 3 minutes. By this time, it had been 4.25 hours that she was awake. I'm just really confused about the playing. I know it's normal for them to play for a bit, but it is like she is on fast forward - her legs are kicking everywhere and she can't stop moving. My guess is fatigue, but she can't wind herself down enough to go to sleep. Instead she just gets crazier and more energetic and nothing we do seems to help.

Any suggestions for this - should we just let her play until she really starts crying or do we get her out of the crib after so many minutes?

Also, I'm not sure what kind of baby she is - she is an extremely laid back, happy baby. She loves jumping and moving her legs. She will go to anyone and does not cry much (except around sleep). She is an observer and likes to just take everything in. She's also rather large at 22 lbs and 29 inches long. I don't know if this helps?

Again, I appreciate all your help thus far and look forward to your feedback

[brenda2]

hi
in tracy's first book there's a quiz for baby type...and depending on their type you may treat them differently re sleep.  she sounds spirited to me which may mean she needs to be really tired and ready for sleep, and only will tolerate a short winddown before bed.  if you put her down too early she may play, get a second wind and get worked up and then it's hard toget her back to sleep.

also, A times may vary throughout the day, for us often the 2nd A time is the longest.

how long did she sleep for the 2nd nap?

great you got a 1 hour 15 min nap, is that the longest nap she's had in a while or is that normal?  not doing 1.5 hours means the previous A time was still a bit short...but since it was a stretch from what you were previously doing what i would do is repeat the 3 hour A time first thing for the next 3 days.  if in 3 days she is still taking around a 1 hour 15 min nap for the first one  i would stretch her A time to 3 hours 15 min first thing and see if this helps.  continue trying around 3 hours or longer for the next A time.  if she continues to fight you increase the 2nd A time.  it may be that she needs slightly longer than 3 hours first thing, then almost 4 hours for the 2nd A time...

does that make sense?

will she sleep in the stroller?

[bglick]

Hi,

Thanks again for your feedback. So far, we don't seem to be getting better, but I am dedicated to sticking with this as I know it takes time. Yesterday's second nap took 1.5 hours to get her down and then she stayed down for 1 hour 10 minutes. Last night we ran into the same problems with playing/crying when we put her down and it took 45 minutes to get her to sleep. She then woke at 3:30am and played/cried until 6am. Nap this morning, same thing and then slept 55 minutes and then this afternoon she has been up 5 hours because she did the same thing. I finally had to feed her b/c it was past time and that seemed to relax her enough to fall asleep.

I realize she sounds like a spirited baby from my emails... and maybe she is. It's just strange because in every other facet of her life, she would fall under angel baby. Easy, doesn't cry much, if at all, will roll with the punches, but there are a few certain things she can't cope with - one is sleep and she turns into a different baby. She cries in the car seat and stroller most of the time. I can get an occasional nap, but it's rare.

Right now, first and foremost, I feel as if she is manipulating us (unintentionally, of course) when we put her down. She plays, then cries hard enough to get us in there and then starts playing again... or cries so we'll pick her up and then she'll quiet, we'll lay her down and she starts playing again??? It is the most frustrating thing we've been through yet with her b/c I simply don't know what to do or how to stay consistent when I am not sure how to react to her... The problem seems to be getting a lot worse and her overall sleep time in a 24 hour period is decreasing even more. I don't want to leave her in there to cry, but I know she's just crying to get me to come in.

If I wait the full three hours or more in between naps, how do I get her sleepy enough to lay down and not try to sit up right away? Once she sits up, it's over and I know she is going to play. She starts showing sleepy signs usually about 2 - 2.5 hours awake and acts tired up until I lay her down??? Should I ignore these and just kind of go by the clock to keep her up longer?  I'm sorry for all the millions of questions, I'm just so confused and frustrated and worried about her lack of sleep and feel that I don't have a plan for this kind of behavior....

Thanks for all your help thus far - it is so nice to just have someone try to help or at least understand. I look forward to your advice on how to proceed with her.

[brenda2]

the playing instead of going down for naps and the playing in the middle of the night may mean she needs more awake time and is just one of those babies who needs less sleep than others.   there is a range of course and some just need less sleep.  i've even seen some mums on here who are down to  1 nap by 8 mo    you know her best so i'm just throwing that out there.  the other explanantion is she's OT and needs more sleep but i think if that was it she'd really be screaming all the time, you'd get 30 min naps and even waking often at night rather than the playing and long NWs you're having.

the long nap she took after she had been awake 5 hours means she wasn't OT for that nap otherwise it would have likely been a 30 min nap.  that's why i'm thinking she may need longer  A times.

i wonder if you'd have better luck with nap #2 if you increased that 2nd A time to 4 hours.  by stretching her and making her more tired before trying to get her down she may go down quicker.  is the 1st nap still going well?

can you post what happened yesterday (with E and S beginning and end times) so i can have another look/think?

[bglick]

You are so nice to be helping me - I really appreciate it! I think that you make a good point on the idea that she just might be one of those babies that doesn't need as much sleep. My only reservations are two things: 1) She does wake after 25 minutes every single nap unless I basically hold her down from 25 - 45 minutes. I don't know what that means? 2) She is a different baby when she has gotten a good nights sleep and relatively good naps then when she doesn't. When she doesn't, it is like she is lethargic and expressionless?? I agree that she might not need the two and three hour naps that most kids this age need. She seems to do great if she just get's those 2 1 hour 15 minute naps and 11 hours at night, but I think she does need that minimum to really thrive and I don't even seem to be able to get her to that right now. I will definitely try stretching things out a bit more tomorrow to see if she will go down easier. I'm just worried that now, whenever I put her int he crib, she automatically starts this playing and she is even starting to bang her head on the side of the crib . I don't know how to get her to see it as a place to sleep, not get all revved up??

Here is a look at yesterday:
5:45 - Awake and BF
6 - 7 - Activity
7 - Rice Cereal
7:30 - 8:30 - Activity
8:45 - Went down
8:45 - 10 - Sleep
10 - BF, Activity
11:15 - Solids
12:30 - Tried to put down
12:30 - 2 - playing/crying in crib
2 - Took out of crib and BF
2:15 - Put down for nap - put down awake after BF
2:15 - 3:25 - Sleep, then Activity
5  - 6 - solids. bath wind down
6:15 - BF, tried to put down
7:00 - still playing in crib/crying
7:15 - finally got to sleep with lots of crying
3:30 - 6am - playing and crying in crib

Today was similar except she was tough to get down both naps (worse than yesterday).

Let me know if you have anymore ideas, feedback or thoughts as to what to do with her?? I'm at a complete loss...

 

[brenda2]

ok
i think you needs to stretch her out a bit.  i think your'e putting her down too soon an d she's not ready so she plays and then it takes even longer for her to go down.  i think she needs a really short winddown and you have to put her down when she's just about ready to go to sleep or else she'll just get up and play.

so i would do:
6 awake and E (milk)
7 solids
9 very short winddown and into bed
9:15-10:30 sleep (hopefully she does 1 hour 15 min)
10:30 E
12 solids
2 E
2:15 short winddown and into bed
2:30 - 3:45 sleep
5 solids
6:45 bath
7 E
7:15 stories/winddown
7:30 bed

so that is a 3 hour 15 min A time first, then 4 hour A time then 3.5 or 3 hour 45 min A time before bed.

i would ignore early yawns, she obviously is not ready for sleep after just 2 or even 3 hours.

when she wakes at 3:30 or whenever do you feed her or just try to put her back down?  if she's not having a df i would feed her at this time.

what kind of activity is she doing?