Questions about naps

[worriermum]

Hi,

I have a few questions about naps, hope someone can help. my DS is 9wks today, is 5.19kg & bottle fed.

-when lo wakes after 45min nap, how long do you try to settle them? Ive heard 45min but on some occasions after A time & time trying to get him to sleep -the 45min nap is close to his next E, so I dont usually bother trying to put him back to sleep. Also sometimes he is SO upset that no amount of consoling seems to calm him unless I take him into the lounge, he eases and then once his bib is on he seems interested in food. Should I be perservering more with the re-settling? dont want to create permanent 45min naps.
-Ive heard the the first A time of the day is typically short, why is this? I told DH this & his reply was 'that doesnt make sense as he's just had a long sleep' unfortunately all I could come back with was 'because "they" said' - hmmm didnt quite convince him.
-do day time naps become shorter once lo starts sleeping longer through the night? DS has started sleeping on average 8hrs (this is from 8.30pm-4.30am). and after 45min naps all day yesterday slept 10hrs lastnight. so then next question:
-if they wake after aprox 45min how do you know if its because they've had enough sleep or cant get back to sleep? the cry seems to be the same, but he does eat if I get him up.

Anyway hope someone can shed a bit of light for me around naps & what they mean.

Thanks in advance?

[deckchariot]

Can you post your EASY for us to take a look at?  45 min naps often indicate a routine tweak is needed.  Also, what are you doing for a wind down routine?  Are you using pat/shh to help teach independent sleep?

First A time is often the shortest because it is in some ways an extension of nighttime sleep.  Hope that helps dh a bit.  When my dd would wake in the middle of a nap, I'd try to extend her for 20-30  min max, by that time, I was out of patience and she was usually hungry, so I got her up and we started the next EASY cycle.  Also, naps don't become shorter when they sleep through the night, they just have less of them.  Here are some links that should be helpful in terms of figuring out day/night sleep and napping arrangements:

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=128419.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85134.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64159.0

Also, babies sort through day and night sleep differently - night sleep develops first (0-3 mos) and day sleep later (3-6 mos), so 9 wks is pretty young to have sleeping all sorted out.  Hang in there.

hth
michelle

[worriermum]

Ok my routine: well its been a bit off past few days due to the short naps so dont know if you need to see what it had been like or not but below is a day from last week

7am E & A 140ml
7.40 S-started wind down & shh/pat but didnt go to sleep until 9am
9.40 E & A 110ml (he woke, close to 10 so started EASY)
11am S -took a bit to settle
12.40pm E & A 110ml (again he woke, close to next feed so fed)
2pm S - again took while to settle
4.20 E & A 170ml
5.30 S - woke at 6pm did shh/pat & went back to sleep
7.30 E & A - we do half feed then bathtime then 2nd half of bottle
8.10 S
1.05am E 130ml
1.40 S
5.50 E 100ml
next awake time 7.30am.

were doing DF but it didnt make him sleep any longer then he was, gave it 2wks then missed it one night & he actually slept an exta 1.5hrs.

we start wind down anywhere from 30-60min from awake time, try to follow signs, I find him hard to read. A time is a combination of nappy change, kick time on mat, tummy time, sit in bouncinette but not bounced. not many toys used, TV is on but not too loud, I'll sit by him & copy the sounds he makes & encourage some interaction, then he is left to look around.
Wind down is: enter room, swaddle, close curtains, a few lullablies with his lullably glowworm-then it depends on him if he's wound up & seems OT then into bed if ok then I'll sit with him cuddle until he seems drowsy then into bed on his back. I do shh/pat -but on his chest & use radio static to shhh. we do notice that sometimes this can be too much all at once & we have been working out what works for him i.e. less pat more shh etc. Tried doing pat on his back as suggested but I cant get to it unless I dont have his blankets tuncked in, but tucking them in once he is asleep can make him stir?

I have found that if the morning nap doesnt go well then the rest of the day goes down hill. Me not being able to read the cues doesnt help much either, so if he does nap longer then 45min then I'll let him sleep maybe 30min into next EASY to catch up rather then wake & shorten A time.
This week with short naps often he gets a 2hr nap before bath time then has been sleeping 8-10hrs.

Apologies if this doesnt make sense as I've had to write this between tending to lo & catching up on housework oh & feeding myself

Thanks in advance

[worriermum]

ps sometimes I do leave his room if the crying gets too much, which is often a couple of minutes. once he's settled should I go back in & start shh/pat even if it appears he's going off to sleep anyway?
We think that sometimes us being in the room gets him more wound up or he tries to resist sleep more???

oh & DH's question if he sleeps at 8.30pm & wakes 3-5am, then obviously goes back to sleep for a couple of hours - is that not an extention of his night sleep? Or do you still have short A with 1st E of the day?

[worriermum]

sorry - more things come to mind that might help or i need help with.
This morning he lay there for about an hour before going off to sleep we tried shh/pat for 40min but not asleep unfortunately we couldnt continue due to other commitments at the time, but he lay there not crying or anything I checked on him throughout this time and was asleep after this hour but only for 30min - is this OT? and what do you do if they wont sleep, do you get them up feed then try again??? our lo is bottle feed & does have some wind & poss. digestion issues so am aware of not overfeeding him/feeding to soon between feeds.
re: digestion issues am seeing signs that make me wonder if this could be causing him not to be able to settle well & go to sleep easily which in turn causes him to get over tired (more)?
he is arching upwards while sticking his tongue (as you would if coughing in bed) sometimes it sounds like he has fluid/milk in the back of his throat & seems like he's trying to get it up. he does spew a bit when trying to settle or after settling (at last feed, I picked him up & he had spewed during the S time. could this be causing him nap issues?

sorry to keep adding on, dont have any family that can help other then those who dont "get" the BW way - the older ones who go on about "back in my day we just......" or are like oh he's fine just leave it be, if he wakes pick him up & cuddle/rock him to sleep or use a dummy.
I am trying to do the BW as I agree with it, and dont want to be correcting APing later down the track.

[deckchariot]

your winddown looks great!  It looks like its just that first nap of the day that's the most problematic.  Your plan of letting him sleep a bit longer and shortening A times after a short nap is right on!  Well done on that!  Even though the first A time of the day is often the shortest, I'm wondering if yours is still too short.  It looks like he's getting over an hour of A time the rest of the day and you're getting longer naps - am I right in that?  But in the am, it looks like you're putting him down after less than an hour?  I would actually lengthen out that morning A time just a bit - maybe only 5-10  min.  By 2 mos, most bubs are doing 1 hr 15, so he could probably handle just a bit more.

When you try for a nap and it's a no-go....I usually try for 30-40 min, then just go ahead and get him up, feed him as soon as he's hungry and put him right back down for a nap.  I know some mom's try longer than that, but that was really all I could handle.

good job on trying to figure out a version of pat/shh that works for him - keep trying different things.  If he's calm and not crying, you could just put him in the crib and leave and see if he can do it.  If he starts crying, wait, listen, see if it's his mantra cry - if it is, just leave him.  If his cry escalates and is clearly and "I need you" cry, the go in and do pat/shh to calm him and get him to sleep (try not to pick him up)

on the feeding issues - have you mentioned your concerns to your doctor?  Is is possible he has reflux or an allergy to the formula?  That will absolutely mess up sleeping, so I would check with your dr.

Generally with the NW you're having (between 3-5), it's not an extension of night sleep so to speak, it still is night sleep for him, which is why that first A time is still usually a bit shorter - night sleep is over, but baby is still not full-on into daytime yet.  Its not true with all bubs, just seems to be a general trend.  My dd switched things up around a year, now her morning A time is shortest.

Well done on sticking to BW!!  FWIW, I think you're doing a great job!!!

hth
michelle

[worriermum]

thanks michelle,
yesterday ended up being a day of short naps again, so evening didnt go to plan. For first time in awhile he woke twice during the night. So hope we can get onto sorting out his nap so it doesnt become a regular thing? with 1st A time we have started around the hour mark-depends on how lo is. But will go back through log to good days & see what was done. We are going away today so his first A will be feed & change then in the car - its a 1.5hr trip & he hopefully will nap this whole time. Will be seeing my aunty who is a nurse so will ask about the feeding issues.
Thanks again, will keep trying & will keep you posted (no doubt I'll have some more questions along the way)

[deckchariot]

enjoy your day out!!!  sometimes we just need  abreak, so don't feel bad if his routines a bit wonky for now

[worriermum]

Hiya,
cant remember wether this question was answered. But if lo lays there awake & wont go to sleep - should I get him up or leave him until he is crying/fussing. Also this morning lo only slept about 30min, went to peep in on him & he was lying there awake now is doing weak crying/fussing - so am I correct in thinking OT? in this case what do I do - try resettling again or get him up for some quiet A time, try feeding then try S again?
I think we are having too longer A time 1st thing. DH feeds & does nappy while I shower for the day, then we swap over - I settle lo to bed while he gets ready for work. I wonder though wether this could be too long & he's tired before Im out of shower etc?? & DH waits for me to put him down rather then starting & having me continue. not sure whats best??? we started doing this as I would be unshowered & in my PJ's for the day due to short naps
as yet (touch wood) short naps arent effecting night sleep, but is it true that if we dont get on top of the day naps nights can become effected? my aunty said with his naps I should get him up & have quiet time & try again - but not too be too fazed about the short naps as they should figure them out. I read other ladies posts & see there bad naps have lead to bad nights eeeeekkkk.
Any advice?

Thanks
p.s. weekend away was great. lo didnt nap much during the day but there were soooo many people around he was too distracted to sleep. by the time we left he was way OT & rest of day went awol, until bed time where he slept 11hrs!!!!

[deckchariot]

30 min  naps generally indicate OT - not always, but most of the time.  Now if he slept 30 min and didn't wake crying, my guess is he just couldn't transition between sleep cycles.  Is he swaddled?  If he lays there and won't go to sleep - I'd try shh/pat to help him get to sleep.  I'd try for 30ish min and if no luck, then yep, get him up, do some super low key A time til he's hungry, then feed him and put him straight to bed.

With that first A time - if you suspect he's OT with that  first nap, the yep, I'd cut back that A time.  Could dh do it if you're still in the shower (I so know how important getting in the shower before the day falls apart is!!!!).  I would not hand off in the middle - whoever starts the wind down needs to finish it and put ds in the crib.  You can switch off then if you want.  I think it's in the first book where Tracy mentions that if you switch off, that's "jarring" for the lo, and they start their "go to sleep" process all over, so you don't want to interrupt that.  If dh starts the winddown and puts him in his crib, then you don't go in unless he's crying the "I need you" cry, or most likely, you'll just have to "reset" him with another wind down.

If he's having trouble at the beginning of his naps falling asleep, you can do pat/shh in the crib to help him.  At his age, short naps are really common because he's trying to figure out how to get to sleep and stay asleep.   So as long as you keep working with him and pat/shh, I think he'll get it.  He won't always be a short napper, and Im sure you can work on it to help prevent it disrupting his night sleep. 

hang in there!!!