Now I've really messed it all up...

[AnnT]

DS is 8 months old today, and I'm going back to work in less than 2 weeks.  I've been trying to get his sleep worked out, and I've blown it.  He is now STTN for the most part (I had to cut his night feeds and let him cry for an hour with checks one night, but now he just wakes up at 5:30ish for food and I bring him into bed with me--otherwise, sleeping great at night).

His naps have always been terrible....45 minute napper, sometimes up to 4 naps a day.  Hard to get down, and has gotten worse as he gets older.  I want him napping twice a day, 10ish and 2ish, if only for 45 minutes each time.  But I tried PU/PD, CC, gentle removal, nursing to sleep, etc...nothing works.  He will sleep with me in my bed and take 1.5 hour naps, or pass out in the car for 1.5-2 hours, or sleep in his swing...but I have no idea how to get him to nap in his crib.

I need to start from square one, and I need to do it fast.  How is my husband and his mom supposed to put James to bed when I go back to work?  I'm freaking out.  What do I do?

[brenda2]

hi
hugs. first relax, it's ok you can do it.  i think one of your problems has been that you haven't been consistent with any one method and you may have confused the poor little guy.

how does he go to sleep at night?

here are some links for you to read to gather info.  i think the best way to do it is pu/pd.  BW does not support cio in any way.  if you stay consistent he will learn it.  2 weeks is enough time if you start now.

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=451.0

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=69177.0

you can find more info on pu/pd on the pu/pd board FAQ

[AnnT]

Thanks, Brenda...I agree that I've confused him!    (I'm confused myself)

At night, he nurses till very drowsy, then I put him in the crib and say goodnight.  Sometimes he'll go right to sleep, other times he'll protest a bit, but no more than 5 minutes before he's out.

At naps, I don't even know what to do any more.  I'd like not to feed right before naps, so I guess I'll just head into his room with him while he is sleepy, then change his diaper if needed, read a book, pull down shades, turn on white noise, and cuddle for a few minutes.  Sometimes he gets very upset when I try to cuddle, so I'll give up early (I usually shoot for 5 minutes cuddling or put him in crib when drowsy).   Sometimes he is impossible to calm down.

So...when I put him in crib, even if he is drowsy, he usually pops back up and protests.  I think picking him up doesn't help at 8 months, right?  So with PU/PD, my question is...do I keep putting him back down?  Or do I leave the room for a few minutes at a time?  He sometimes SCREAMS when I leave, sometimes just is irked for awhile.  What would you recommend?

[brenda2]

appropriate A times are key - you have to be sure he is ready for his nap but not OT when trying to get him down or he'll really protest and it'll be much harder. 

can you post your routine (E,A,S) with typical A times and amounts of sleep (sleep and wake times) and i'll look at it.

a good wind down is also important, what you outlined sounds good.  i usually did a lullaby while rocking too.  if he is spirited then shorter is better, even with my textbook LO i never did more than 5 min so that's ok.  make sure he's not OS though, so less stimulating activities leading up to the winddown can help too.

can he stand up by himself right now?  if so can he sit back down by himself? if so this changes the pu/pd technique...

when you say he protests is this full out screaming or mantra crying or fussing?  when you say irked what does this sound like?

sorry...the techniques vary depending on what Lo is doing and their developmental abilities, just trying to get a clearer picture.

[AnnT]

Don't say sorry...you're helping me out a TON!

His "schedule" has been a mess since we tried getting him to be an independent napper.  We're kind of at...

5:30 -- EW, BF and bring to bed with me
7:30ish -- Wake up and BF
8:30 -- feed solids
10ish -- nap, usually for only 30 minutes, 1.5 hours if with me in my bed
11:30 -- BF
12:30 -- solids
1:30/2ish -- nap (again, 40 minutes if I'm lucky...up to 2 hours if in the car)
3:30 -- BF
5:30 -- solids
6:30 -- walk outside
7 -- bath & BF
7:30ish -- bed

He used to nap 3 times a day, but I'm trying to get rid of that...I know he can nap longer, and I'm hoping he eventually will...

To answer the other questions... yes, he stands up on his own and can sit back down (sometimes with a bang).

His protests at night I think are more of a mantra cry, during naps, at first he'll play on his own, then mantra, then eventually start screaming.

I tried PD today for his nap...didn't go well.  He woke up at 8, and I began the nap routine at 10:10 when he showed signs of sleepiness.  He was quiet when I first put him down, even if he was sitting up, so I left the room.  After 10 minutes he started getting really upset, so I went back in and tried to do PD.  This got him even more upset...screaming and rolling around the crib, standing up trying to grab me, etc.  I felt horrible...I really don't think I can do PD.  I was having better luck with CC...  So, wanting to make him feel better but not take him out of the crib, I climbed in there and lay with him until he fell asleep, then left.  He woke up 30 minutes later.

I am so frustrated.  I have to leave him Monday-Wednesday next week with my husband's grandmother while I go to teacher meetings, since hubby and MIL both can't do those days.  Then 5 days at home with him, then back to school...hubby will be home MWF and James will go to my MIL T & Th.  I don't think he'll have any consistency and I don't know what I'm supposed to do to make it better.

[brenda2]

i think a major problem is that he is used to sleeping with you.  this is a prop and he is used to falling asleep/staying asleep with you there and he doesn't know how to do it any other way.  he wakes after 30-40 min because he can't transition into the next sleep cycle without you there.

i would stop the sleeping with you cold turkey (since you don't have time to do gentle removal and it's not every sleep so it shouldn't be that hard to teach him how to do it).  don't do it for naps and don't do it in the morning.  give put down another try.  BW doesn't support CC or CIO as tracy felt it causes a lack of trust between baby and parent.  you don't want to go from him sleeping with you to you just leaving him to cry.  this is strange, confusing and scary to a LO who doesn't know what's going on.

i would also stop the bf at 5 am unless you feel he is really starving.  he shouldn't need a feeding at this age during the night and by continuing to feed him here you are reinforcing that waking.

so, for naps, first i would try closer to the 3 hours mark first thing in the morning.  so if he wakes at 7:30 try putting him down at 10:15 for his first nap (allowing 15 min to go to sleep).  maybe he is slightly undertired for you first thing.  go into his room and do winddown and put him in the bed.  if he is quiet you can leave.  if he fusses, chats or mantra cries stay out of the room.  if he screams go back in, if standing up you can just lay him gently back down and shh and rub his back, if he stands back up repeat until he is calm and then you can leave the room. if he really is out of control you can pick up but put him back down as soon as he is calm or 2 min whichever comes first.  if still crying at 2 min put him down and pick him back up.  hold him horizontal and no rocking, thoug h you can shh and rub or pat his back. since you are trying to teach him to sleep independently i would do this until he falls asleep or 45 min at which point take a 15 min break and try again until it's the next feed time.  if it takes a long time and he sleeps through his feed i would let him sleep just to avoid OT.  it can take a long time, but the results are worth it and if you stick with it he'll learn quickly.

for us i did pu/pd very successfully at about 6 mo to get rid of NWs.  it worked really well.  it took me 2 nights and she was sttn.  so it does work!  but it did take a long time and you have to be patient.  it took me 80 min the first night and 90 min the second.  with LO screaming almost the whole time.

now since DD can stand up i found pd did not work as well if she is having trouble.  so a variation that i am doing is when she cries i go into the room and sit on the floor, no eye contact, i say "lie down, sleepy time, avery has to go tp sleep now, get your bear, shhh" these kinds of things until she lies herself down and calms down.  i found that when i put her down she just popped right back up again and never calmed down.  now that she is a bit older and can understand me i find it works better if i'm in there but she is the onoe who lies herself down.  but she's a bit older than your LO and know how to go to sleep independently.  but, you can try a variation of the techniques based on what works for you.

also, have you tried having someone else put him down?  sometimes my LO goes down more easily for someone else.  when she is feeling clingy and just wants me she tend to cry to be held by me but if DH or my mom tries to put her down she just goes to sleep so easily because she's not interested in cuddles from them! (my theory).  so maybe you won't have so much trouble next week...especially if you wean him off sleeping with you this week.

A times...should be about 3 hours.  so first thing try after 3 hours and if he takes a good 1st nap for you give him another 3 hours before the second one.  he may be UT and this will be harder for him to go down for you.  if his first nap is short though shorten the A time to 2 to 2.5 hours.  also, last A time before bed should also be 3 hours, not longer.  so he may be OT by bedtime and this may be causing that EW.

[AnnT]

Wow, thank you.  That was so detailed and helpful!!  You give me motivation to keep trying...

A couple questions...

When he has his 5am (sometimes 5:30), I do PD, right?   But when do I give up?  I have to get up for work sometime between 6 and 6:30, but I'd like DS to sleep until 7.  Will it reinforce the waking if I give up at 6 to start the day?  What if he wakes at 6...just get him up and start the day?

Also, I'd ideally like his first feeding around 7:30, so that he only needs to be fed once while I'm at work (then I feed him #3 when I get home at 3:30).  Is it okay not to feed first thing, or am I being selfish?  If he gets up at 6, do I just not feed him until 7?  I'm assuming that he's hungry...

I'm wondering if I should have DH try the pd, since DS knows he is less likely to cave in like his momma is!  DH is fine just letting him cry...ugh.  I couldn't handle it...it was terrible trying that.

[brenda2]

his EW may be linked to poor naps (OT) or he is habit waking for the feeding so it may stop once you've improved those areas.  if he wakes you should do pd.  try for 45 min or so then get him up.

i think a first feed at 7:30 is reasonable.  if he is starving before then i would feed him though.  feeding earlier may reinforce the EW because he may wake for the feed.

i would definitely let dh try.  my dh has more success sometimes than i do, and sometimes it's vice versa.  worth a shot, especially if he will not cave and you think you will have trouble.  it can be a long trying experience, i know, i've been there, but so worth it.