nap problems, taking nearly 1 hour to fall asleep in evening, early waking- OT?

[Iris75]

Quick update:

Well.... he's sleeping.

I settled him down nearly 2 hours ago at around 12 noon, and he is still asleep. I am expecting him to wake up any minute now, though...

I can't say it was fun. He was tired but he also got very upset when I took him upstairs and put his sleeping bag on (he needs that on, otherwise he jumps right out of his crib!). I couldn't even do the winding-down routine that I had planned, because he was already upset before I started! He cried for about 20 minutes, during which I did go in frequently, but couldn't really settle him much. He eventually lay down on his own. I peaked round the corner a few times and he was still crying on and off, but lying down. Eventually he stopped and fell asleep.

As I said, overall it took maybe 20 minutes and he's been asleep since then. I'll do the same tomorrow, although we will be at my MIL's house (maybe settle him in her bed or something), but I already regret that next week it will be difficult again as he is at the childminder until Wednesday and then we will be travelling until Sunday. 

Still, he is sleeping now, and it gives me hope that with a bit of time we can make this into a routine.

[becky1969]

well, yay on the 2 hour nap!!!!    That's fabulous!!!!  On the wind down, I still do it if he's crying.  He almost always stops partway in.. With you guys, it's all new so that may not work.  But it might be worth a try?

That's tough that you've got some routine breakers coming up.  When we sleep elsewhere I make sure that we bring along 2-3 of the objects in his room that we say night-night too.  In other words, the place may be different but the routine stays the same.  It helps him SO much! In fact, he gets excited when we unpack his little night-night objects.  It helps him to feel like he recongizes something!  So, as much as possible I'd try to get that routine cemented in his brain.

A week or so of good naps and I think you'll see a 6:30 waking, which is your goal, right? Better than 5:30 for sure!

[Iris75]

Well, we did the same thing yesterday (changed my plans to at least have 2 days at home to try the nap routine) and I persisted with the routine although he was crying. He stopped crying when he had his milk, then started up again when I tried to settle him in his cot. Like the day before he cried quite a bit initially, but then less and less and when he didn't sound so upset I stopped going in. Again he fell asleep within 20 minutes and slept for 2 hours.

It really is noticeable now that he is less tired in the afternoons - much more lively, much less whinging and complaining...

He went to bed at 7pm again and both nights he slept till after 6am - on Sunday he slept till 6.50 am and today he woke at 6.20 am so we again got him out of his cot at 6.30 am. Not much crying in the mornings now, though, so that's much better too!

One question, though - as I said, we have quite a bit of disruption coming up - first the childminder, so routine is difficult during the week now anyway (until October at least, when I will have him at home more during the week) but we are also travelling from Thursday to Sunday.

Any suggestions what I should do re. sleep routines while we are away? I predict that he will probably not want to fall asleep on his own because he doesn't know the environment. Should I stay with him? I am just afraid of slipping back into old bad habits...

[becky1969]

When we travel, I do whatever I can to help my child sleep so that we don't start ANOTHER OT cycle!  It is a different place and it makes them nervous and uncomfortable.  So, any soothing method that works is fine in my book.  Typically, we have to sleep in the same room as my son which actually does a lot to help.  I wouldn't offer those extra soothing methods until it looks like he needs it. He may surprise you! But, do what you need to.  Once you're back at home, you can be more strict about everything.  Things may be a little odd for a bit, but it should slide into place again.  No matter what I do for soothing while away, my son goes right back to normal once he's in his room -- he KNOWS what the routine is at home, so doesn't expect anything different! With your LO, I don't know if your new routine is old enough to be concrete, but I'm guessing it will be! Let's hope!

And great news on those 'late' wakings! YAY! And the 2 hour nap too! You're making so much progress!!

[Iris75]

quick update...

Well, we're back!

The trip went well, considering. Obviously the routine was a bit all over the place, but on the Thursday DS managed to fall asleep while I was on a bus into town and at least slept for a bit over an hour. He then went to bed at the usual time in the evening and although I had to stay in the room with him he was content to lie there and fell asleep within 20 minutes. He slept until 5.30 am, which was less than he'd done in the days before, but with the travelling I guess it was to be expected.

The next day we flew to Germany, so that was a bit chaotic, regarding his nap. He forced himself to stay awake all morning and only finally caved and fell asleep when we were on the plane at around 3pm. He slept the entire flight, though, so he had 1.5 hours in the end - not too bad. Again, he went to bed at the usual time and fell asleep (with me in the room) pretty quickly. Again, he slept until 5.30 am.

Nap disaster struck the next day - we were invited to a wedding that started at 11.30am. DS napped for 20 minutes in the car on the way there and then woke up as we arrived. He was pretty grumpy after that because obviously he was very tired, but he refused to go back to sleep ALL DAY LONG. I was getting pretty stressed about it by the end of the day because he was visibly exhausted, yet seemed unable to just give in and nap. We finally went home around 7pm and got him to bed at the usual time. I think he was asleep within minutes... And lo and behold, he was that tired, he slept until 6.30 am the next morning!!

That day was our leaving day but the flight wasn't until the early evening so DH settled him down for a proper nap at around 11 am. He put up quite a fight (I was on the phone downstairs at the time and I could hear him crying), but within 20 minutes he was asleep and slept for 2 hours. Yay! We arrived back in the UK around 6.30 pm in the evening and had a 2 hour drive home. I thought that DS would probably sleep in the car as he usually does, but I think with all the travelling he had that much to process that he didn't fall asleep at all. He just kept on wanting to talk about the 'planes' and about all the people he'd met...

This meant that by the time we arrived back home shortly before 9pm he was totally wired and OT. So much so that we had to fit in the long winding down routine with a bath to get him to calm down enough to sleep. Once in bed, though, he let me leave the room immediately (Yay! I'd been so worried that staying in the room with him while travelling would set us back with that) and fell asleep pretty much within 5 minutes. He slept until 6.30 am.

Yesterday he was at the childminder's and didn't want to sleep again - she finally managed to get him off to sleep by driving around in the car for an hour! No problems in the evening, though - he went to bed at the usual time and fell asleep on his own. Waking time this morning was 6.45 am - pure bliss!! 

Anyway, this just as an update. Overall, despite the nap chaos I am fairly pleased with how it went. I just really need to sort this nap issue at the childminder's out... Any suggestions?

The problem that the carer has, really, is that she is on the move with them so much. Right now for example, they are dropping the older boy off at playschool in the morning and collecting him again around 11.30 or 12 noon, meaning that DS can't have a proper nap in a cot - he would have to sleep in his pram or in the car. Do you think that if I manage to establish a routine for him at home (sleep at 11.30 am for about 2 hours) this is something he will be able to transfer to a nap on the go on the days when he is at the childminder's?!

[becky1969]

So glad your trip went better than expected! I think he did AWESOME considering all the new experiences, different beds, time changes, etc.  Yay mommy and boo!

Sounds like he's already back into routine.  I'm not sure what to offer on the CM and asking him to sleep on the go.  My son would not be able to do that.  I have a sensitive little chap, and so riding in a car is stimulating (not relaxing) due to all the new sights to see.  He never even slept in the car as a newborn!

I think your best shot is trying to establish the same nap time at home and at CMs.  Other than that, you may just have to deal with short naps on CM days and then hopefully longer naps at home.  Is there any way you could find a different CM with more of an at-home schedule?  I know that may be difficult, but if is at all an option I think I'd consider it.

[Iris75]

Hi Becky,

a new interesting development in the last few days...  I'm hoping you may have some wisdom how I should deal with it.

Our childminder is on holiday for a week so this week I'm at home with DS and I thought I'd take this opportunity to really work on his daytime naps. Just to recap, so far this has been what has been happening if I put him down during the day:

1) We start gradual winding down through something to eat and some quiet play (reading a book or watching some TV)
2) I tell him it's getting close to nap time
3) He tends to react grumpily to this - usually just answers with a 'NO!'
4) We head upstairs to change his nappy and get him ready. He usually starts crying a bit by then.
5) I stick him in his sleeping bag (otherwise he'll try to escape the cot)
6) I offer him his milk on my lap (this is something that I do in the evening when it works really well, so I thought I'd use it for nap time too) but he ALWAYS refuses it, pushes it away and just cries. He usually cries 'night night' and wants to lie in his cot, but at the same time seems really unhappy about it - it kind of baffles me...
7) I lie him down in his cot, kiss him and tell him to have a good nap now.
He continues crying and I go in every so often, usually to no avail, but at least he knows that I'm there for him.
9) within 20 minutes or so he falls asleep, then sleeps for 1.5 - 2 hours.

Well, this is what USED TO HAPPEN. What happens now is the same, but he doesn't fall asleep anymore. Instead, after about 5-10 minutes of crying in his cot he calms down and starts chatting to himself. He then (I assume) starts to play with his teddies. Occasionally he calls out to me but doesn't seem upset, so I haven't been acting on that. The last two days this has been going on for about 40 minutes, when he starts getting upset again and really wants to come out. By that point I have to get him as it is becoming pretty evident that he is not going to sleep.

I'm a bit helpless how to deal with that!

I think what has happened is that he's found a way to keep himself awake - by playing. When he just used to lie there and cry he'd eventually fall asleep, but now, because he sits up and plays, he can just fight it. I wouldn't mind this so much if it seemed like he'd do OK without the sleep, but in the afternoon he is so tired! I started packing him off to bed a bit earlier in the evening now because yesterday he literally almost fell asleep over his dinner - his eyes were shutting and he was swaying on his chair!

His nighttime routine is - so far - unaffected by this, but then, it's only been 2 days with absolutely no daytime sleep, so I am worried that things will start slipping again with that too.

Any suggestions what I might try?! I'm just stumped by this new development!

[becky1969]

Can you tell me what your routine is now, with regards to nap timing and bedtime?

I think he's OT by naptime, and so that is making it hard for him to wind down.  And, like you're saying, during that loooong wind down he begins to play and then that distracts him from sleep!

I'd also like to offer a couple of suggestions on nap wind down.  We need to get him more relaxed.  We also need to give him more warnings that nap is going to happen.  I think part of his problem is transitioning.  I think you're doing an awesome job with the quiet activity before nap time, but I think you just might have one of those kids who hates transitions normally, so he's dreading going into nap time.

Here's my nap routine ideas:

1) Keep your step one.  That's great.
2) This is good too, but I'm going to elaborate a bit (and perhaps this is what you do).  I want you to tell him.  "Five minutes until nap time sweetie!", and then "Four minutes until nap time!" and then "Three minutes..." etc. etc. etc.  We have to do this with my son as well because transitions are hard for him (which is what I'm recognizing in your son too!).  Owen always fusses at the first two warnings, but by the last 3 he's gotten used to the idea and is just kind of reconciled to his fate.    This won't work fantastically the first time, but after a few days of doing this, he'll get the idea that you are giving him ample warning that nap is coming up and it will allow him to get used to the idea of changing activity.

3) I think we need a fun activity to do once we are in his room.  Pick something he likes to do.  My son is really into books right now (for the first time EVER!), so before my last nap warning I'll say "Start thinking about what book you want to read when we get upstairs!".  In other words, I'm giving him something to look forward to, not just a boring nap in his crib.  It sounds like all the 'fun' stuff happens before you start the diaper, sleeping bag, etc.  Let's have 1 fun little thing -- 1 song, 1 story, having a puppet help him with his diaper, etc. -- that happens AFTER you get him in his room.  It gives him something to look forward to and can really change the mood of the event.

4) After you offer the milk is probably when I'd do this fun activity.  In other words, I want his nappy already changed and him in his sleep sack.  He should be all ready for sleep, so that after the fun thing he goes in his crib.  Then, while in the chair/rocker read him a story or sing him a song or two.  We want something sweet and cuddly here, a last hurrah with mama before he goes to sleep.  You will be very strict about this activity, in that it will ONLY be 1 story or 1 song.  We don't want this to be a stall tactic.  But if you are clear from the get go that it is only 1, then he will get it.  My son knows that he only gets 1 story, and so after its done he says "bye-bye book!". 

5) The crying and saying 'night-night' tells me his OT and just wants to sleep, but is so wound up from being OT his body is having trouble relaxing.  We are going to fix this by giving him a nap 30 minutes earlier than you are now.



Let's try these changes for a few days and see what happens.  Again, please post me your current routine times so I can guage if my instinct is right on the OT thing.

[Iris75]

Thanks for your reply Becky.

I think you might be right with the OT - it's sometimes so difficult to recognise these things on your own, though!  I like your ideas to make his transition longer and more obvious to him so I'll try that today. I think you may be right that he just resents the transition and needs more warning to resign himself to it.

My routine regarding timings for naps and bedtime is like this:

I usually go to some toddler group in the morning. They tend to finish sometime between 11 am and 11.30 am. I then head home with him and give him something to eat and start winding him down. He goes to bed at around 12 noon. I did this for a few days - initially it worked and he fell asleep and then the whole thing started slipping and he started to play instead. Experimentally, yesterday (and also because I had a midwife appointment at 1.30 pm) I settled him for his nap at around 2pm yesterday. He really was tired by then so I was hoping it would make a difference but no such thing. Again, there was no nap.

In the evening he usually watches one programme (In the Night Garden) on TV. This finishes at 6.45pm by which time he heads up for his bath (usually quite happily). He is usually in bed by 7.10-7.15pm when he chats to himself a bit and falls asleep. He now tends to wake up sometime between 6.20 and 6.45 am (which is great!!).

The last two days, because he's been so tired, I've given him a DVD to watch rather than his usual nighttime programme and have shifted bedtime forward a bit with that so that he was usually in bed by 7pm. Both times he seemed to fall asleep within minutes. He slept until 6.30 am approximately, so no real change there.

Occasionally he is up once in the night - he doesn't get too upset so I usually don't have to go in then, but I still know because he occasionally calls for me and it obviously wakes me up (this happened last night for example - he was up for about 20 minutes - perhaps another sign of OT?!)

I'll persevere with the naps and put him down a bit earlier today if I can. We are going to a pre-school open day in the morning, which starts at 10 am, but I think we'll probably be back by about 11am so I could try to get him ready then and I'll try the bedtime story idea - he loves his books and maybe that way I can make him have his milk on my lap (so far he's never had it at nap time - it's as if he refuses in protest of the nap routine - I tend to eventually leave it in his cot for him an yesterday he eventually drank it on his own).

[becky1969]

Yup, that NW is sign of being OT! I think its wonderful he still slept until 6:30 even with an earlier bedtime -- more hours of sleep at night that way!

When my son got in an OT cycle at that age, we often would have a snack in the car on the way home and wait to have a lunch until after nap in order to get him in bed earlier.  I find toddler appetites can be pretty flexible -- they can't go without food entirely, but you can hold them off with a decent snack (a little carb+protein combo works best).  You might try that if one of your activities is taking you too long.  I think a slightly earlier nap -- even 15 minutes! -- might make a world of difference for this LO.

I hope you find the routine changes helpful! Since I have lived with a boy who hates transitions for nearly 3 years, I can kind of recognize a kindred spirit when I sit it!    In fact, my DH and I had a motto when Owen was a baby: "Transitions are hard!"    It hasn't gotten better wtih time either. 

[Iris75]

Thanks again Becky. I do know what you mean with the dislike of transitions. I really think DS doesn't like the idea that one thing ends and something else is about to commence and he often struggles against that for a while. 

Re. his nap time and snack time: Maybe a little snack is the way forward... It's so hard to find the time for a proper meal and still finish with everything befroe 11.30 / 12 noon. In particular as DS is such a slow eater. Honestly, when I took him to toddler groups this week he usually sits with the other children to have a drink and a snack at around 10 am but he'll sit for about 30 minutes after everybody else has got up again to play, all the while still slooooowly pushing toast / fruit / biscuits into his mouth. 

Well, yesterday my nap attempt was a bit earlier, although sadly not by as much as I wanted to because the pre-school meeting went on for a lot longer than I anticipated. I think he was in bed by 11.45 / 12 noon after a wind down routine that included a book after the nappy change. He enjoyed that and overall he seemed a lot less upset by the prospect of going for a nap. I told him a few times beforehand and he seemed OK with it all. This really gave me hope, in particular because he also seemed tired and quite mellow.

Sadly, this changed when he got into his cot. He didn't cry this time round and was happy for me to lie him down, but again after a few minutes (or possibly immediately - I don't know because I leave the room) he got up to play. I went in quite a few times to lie him down again but the rustling I heard on the baby monitor told me that he got up again as soon as my back was turned. Eventually I even sat with him for a while because I thought that this might provide some incentive to stay lying down. No such thing, though - instead he started to think it was all a big game. When I eventually left the room he complained a little about it but again was fine with it, just continued playing. After a little over an hour I finally gave up and got him.

It really is as if he's figured out that if he just manages to stay upright the whole time he can avoid falling asleep! Of course he was really tired again in the afternoon and kept lying down while he was playing...

Today we were out all day so I couldn't do any proper sleep training,  but in one respect this was good - because we were in the car quite a bit he fell asleep twice. Once in the morning for about 30 minutes (around 9.30 am) and then again around 1pm when he slept for over 1.5 hours. He was much more rested this afternoon but still went to bed without any complaint at his normal time of 7pm. We'll see what this does to his NWs and his wake-up time tomorrow... (this morning he woke earlier - at 6 am - but he was very thirsty, so I think that may have been the reason. When DH went in to give him some water he nearly drank a full beaker full!).

We are planning on taking him swimming tomorrow morning - for the first time really - so that should make him nice and tired, and we should be back by 11.30 at the latest. I'll try the nap routine again tomorrow. Will let you know how it goes!

[becky1969]

If he's just chatting/playing in the crib at nap time, I'd leave him without intervention.  Sometimes going in over and over almost becomes like a game for them.  Taking 20-30 minutes to fall asleep is quite normal and natural for children *and* adults. Most toddlers play and chat before sleep, so it isn't a sign that they aren't going to nap necessarily.  It becomes a way that they wind themselves down.

I know that it was a hard transition for me when we unswaddled my son at 7 months old.  suddenly he wasn't just going right to sleep, but chatting and playing (guess those hands were pretty entertaining!  ).  However, once I relaxed about it I found that as long as I got him to bed early enough, he wouldn't party more than 30 minutes or so.  I think by going in and out you are perhaps prolonging the play period.  I know you're worried about no nap, but obviously going in isn't helping him sleep faster, right? 

So how about this: continue trying for an earlier nap.  The playing for an hour is a sign of OT.  If he plays in his crib, let him.  Just leave him be.  After an hour (or if he starts to cry), then you can go in and get him.  You might even try again later in the day for a short cat nap just so he's not shattered by bed time.  But try this for a few days -- no change happens immediately.  I think you'll find without you going in there, he will eventually settle down. 

Good news, though, that he's more calm at sleep time! I think adding some more transitional acitivites is the way to go! Yay!