Crying Again (sorry its a very very long one)

[nododo]

Writing this down and talking it over with my DP just wandering if I should ignore the sleep cues for a couple of days and just put her down that half hour later in the morning and fit in more with your EASY example....If I move to this, what time would you reccomend giving her her solids??  At the moment they are at 8.30 and 1230

[*Nicola*]

The morning nap is still the same time as she is so knackered by then, but I have moved the afternoon nap to around 2ish.  She hadn't been going down till then anyway so going up that bit later makes her zizz off much quicker.  The amount of times I lie her back down again has definaltey got less, but she plays with her bunny alot at nap times too. 

Sounds fab.  She is prob tired in the morning if she has been having NW's.  GREAT news on the decreasing 'lay downs'.  Remember that this is progress.  Baby steps and all that Saying that, I would maybe try to keep stretching that A time to see if she will extend that nap to nearer 1.5 hours.

At bedtimes she is definately playing with her bunny cos she is distracted by it.  She is so tired when I lie her in and usually drifts off, but then wakes up again and starts playing with the bunny.  Then she gets to the point where she can barely lift her head and it is flopping back down, but she is still going for the bunny!!  The room is dark appart from a very soft night light. (what does kwim mean?).  There is no reason why she is tucked up at naps and not at night.  I started using sleeping bags because she kicked off the sheets at night and got cold.  I have tried tucking her up at night too (just with the sheet so she is not too hot) but it makes no difference.

Will she settle with the bunny in the cot but not necessarily in her hand?  If it is distracting her then I would try without it and even pop it in once she is sleeping so she is used to it being there.   Have you tried with the nightlight off?  She might do better in a totally dark room, particuarly if she is distractable.

KWIM is know what I mean

I'm not really sure how the GW is going.  I got to the point where I settled her down with my hand still on her until she was really either glazed over or sucking her thumb with her eyes closed moaning and then sat back with no problem, so she did the last bit on her own.  But since then I've been trying to put her in, and give her her bunny and say "it's time to go to sleep now" and then sit back so she settles herself, but this is where the bunny action starts.

laughing @ bunny action! I would try without bunny and see what happens.  Does she cry if you leave the room when she has bunny?

Regardless of the bunny/no bunny I think you need to be consistent with GW and continue to withdraw otherwise things won't move forward.

7-7.20ish Wake up (she wakes up later if she goes to sleep later) Boob and then Activity including solids
9.30-10ish Nap (30 mins to an hour and half...varries everyday)
11-11.30ish - Boob then Activity including solids
2 - Nap (anwhere from and hour and half to two hours)
3.30-4ish Boob then Activity including solids
6 - up for bed routine
7 - in cot then could be asleep any time between then and 8

Looks pretty good.  Lots of babies have a short first A time like your LO does.  I think this is fine as long as she is having a good nap.  At 9 months you are ideally looking at around 3 hours of day time naps.  I am wondering if your LO  may be a bit OT on the days she doesn't have long naps?  OT can be the cause of NW's.

If she is waking at 330 from her nap I would keep that last A time to 3 hours max and aim to have her in bed by 630.  This will keep her from getting OT and will 'cover you' if she has any 'bunny action' time

If she wakes at 330 and doesn't fall asleep til 8pm then she is having WAY to much A time for a 9 month old and will be OT for sure, which makes it harder to fall asleep and leads to more NWs in many cases.

x

[*Nicola*]

Writing this down and talking it over with my DP just wandering if I should ignore the sleep cues for a couple of days and just put her down that half hour later in the morning and fit in more with your EASY example....If I move to this, what time would you reccomend giving her her solids??  At the moment they are at 8.30 and 1230

LOL great minds, I said this in my post there

You might find she gets OT if you keep her up 30 mins extra.  When we extend A time we would walk around house holding DD, look out windows etc, do a wind down that's a bit longer.  Keep things low key and do it gradually.  Maybe aim for 5/10 mins and see what happens

With regard to solids I would give them about an hour after her milk feeds. 

x

[nododo]

She does settle with Bunny in her cot, we have had him in there since she was old enough to have toys in her cot, just in the corner.  In the am when she wakes up she goes and gets him and plays with him.  I haven't actually tried leaving when she is playing with her bunny so not sure if she cries.  Again have been talking it over with DP and wandering if we should try something else, like a muslin.  She really likes muslins!  I would still keep bunny in the cot in the corner...what do you think?

I just worry with the GW that she is staying awake too long and maybe I am missing out a stage!  When would you recomend I sit back in the chair?  I have tried with the nightlight off, but she seemed quite scared when she woke up.  I think I need to double check that all the upstairs lights are off so there is no light coming through the door as I always leave it a little open.

Thanks so much for all this fab advice.  I feel much better just having some possitive things to work with. 

[*Nicola*]

Thanks so much for all this fab advice.  I feel much better just having some possitive things to work with. 

Very welcome.  It does help to write it all down and think about it a bit more objectively.  Well as objectively as you can

She does settle with Bunny in her cot, we have had him in there since she was old enough to have toys in her cot, just in the corner.  In the am when she wakes up she goes and gets him and plays with him.  I haven't actually tried leaving when she is playing with her bunny so not sure if she cries.  Again have been talking it over with DP and wandering if we should try something else, like a muslin.  She really likes muslins!  I would still keep bunny in the cot in the corner...what do you think?

I was thinking about a blanket too.  You can always try it, nothing really to loose.  Bunny is maybe a bit too exciting for her

I just worry with the GW that she is staying awake too long and maybe I am missing out a stage!  When would you recomend I sit back in the chair? . 

It looks a bit like this to me. That's why I was wondering if the bunny was keeping her awake. 

Ok ...

The Gradual Withdrawl Method

The key to Gradual Withdrawl is to take tiny steps and make the changes very small at first so the child barely notices them.  Create a plan, broken into small steps of how you will reduce the parental dependence and work towards independence.  For example, patting on the back becomes lighter and lighter until the hand barely brushes the child's back, but is poised just above it.

To implement, follow your bedtime routine being certain that your child has sufficiently wound down from the day.  When wind down is completed, lay your child down, tuck them in and use a phrase they can associate with it's sleep time such as "time to go night-night you can find your blankie/pacifier/suck your thumb/etc. to help you fall asleep." Settle your child in their crib/bed and comfort as you normally would, then implement the first step in your plan.  Depending upon your child's temprament, you may be able to tackle more in less nights, or need to do less over the course of more nights.

The Gradual Withdrawl Method is intended for children that are reliant upon a parent's presence to calm them and help them settle for sleep. Examples are: sitting in the room, holding a child's hand, laying down with a child, patting to sleep, among others.  The idea is to simply reduce the reliance on parental presence gradually and in very small increments so the child continues to settle well and gains confidence in their ability to fall asleep independently.  The parent is there to assist the child in sleeping, but slowly reduces the dependence.  Examples might be: moving a chair closer and closer to the door until out of the room over the course of a few weeks, moving out a child's bed to an air mattress on the floor, then slowly move farther and farther towards the door over time, reducing the length of time patting though still staying with the child - then slowly working closer and closer towards the door.

This is also the best method for a child:

who's undergone controlled crying or crying it out as it helps to regain any trust that may have been broken
who gets very upset, sometimes to the point of vomiting
who does not settle after hours/days/weeks of walk in/walk out

This may also be a good method for a child who is not necessarily dependant on any one thing, but who needs some fundamental training to learn how to sleep independently.     

....

I think it is really important that you are consistent with using your key phrase, putting your hand on her tummy  and then sitting back.  Key is to reduce your intervention overall, so reduce the length of time you have your hand on her tummy and then work on getting nearer to the door.  If she will stay in cot calmly without your hand on her tummy then I would stop this anyway

[*Nicola*]

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=78858.0

Have you seen this support thread x

[nododo]

Hi,

Just thought I'd give you an update on how things are going.  We have successfully moved both her naps to the later time and she is going down for them so much better.  We do a little wind down, looking at of the windows like you suggested and then have a cuddle and little song and then she usually closes her eyes and settles down as soon as I put her in the cot. (Not so easy if her teeth are sore and a couple of times she has been over tired and it has taken a while to get her down...just getting used to it).

With the GW I don't have to put my hand on her tummy at all at nap times usually, but at night things are still quite hard.    On average it takes about 30 mins for her to settle and she won't even calm down with a hand on her tummy (this is where I used to pin her down until she went off). She arches her back and rolls around and cries if I try so I ahve been sitting back in the chair and just lying her down if she sits or stands up till eventually she wears herself out and goes off.  I try not to interfere as much as possible so she is putting herself to sleep, but I am not sure if she just isn't tired yet or if it is because she is not used to doing it herself.  This means she is not going down till about 7.30.  So far I have moved the chair two cot bars along and she doesn't seem to notice the difference.

The new routine and the putting herself to sleep does seem to be having an effect on the NW.  On average now she only wakes up 1-2 times (one will be while we are still up if there are two and one anywhere between 1 and 3 am) between going to sleep and 7am which is a massive improvement.  On the downside, she seems to have taken to waking up at 5.45.  She is still really sleep and sometimes sucks her tumb and difts in and out of sleep but never to the point where I can leave the room, and usually she does a poo after half and hour and then there is no chance of getting her back to sleep!!!

On the whole I am feeling a lot more possitive about things now and seeing an improvement is really encouraging....Any more thoughts your end??
XxX

[nododo]

OK...may have been a little optimistic when I wrote this last night.  The night before last and last night we had long night wakings.  The night before last it was for half an hour and then last night for an hour and a half.  Normally when she wakes we have the sitting up and then when I go in and lie her down she goes straight off to sleep again.  Both times she was just lying there eyes wide, sucking her thumb and not going back to sleep no matter what I tried (as I thought it might be her teeth I tried hand on tummy, hair stroking etc)

So becuase of this she has then slept in both mornings till about 7.45, which has then put the day out.  Both yesterday and today nap time has been really hard as she just isn't tired enough, so in the end hasn't gone down till 10.30 after a lot of struggling and crying (this is very unusual as she hardly ever cries).  Then she has only slept an hour in the am both days so in theory her routine should be back on track but yesterday the afternoon nap time was really hard and again she went off half an hour late and only slept for an hour. 

Just wanted to get some ideas about this...Do you think she is sleeping in because she isn't going off to sleep till 7.30 or becuase of the night waking??  Could the fact that she is over tired from her naps being shorter be making this night waking longer??  What do you think about waking her at 7 if she is asleep?  When I first put her on EASY I had to wake her (as Tracey suggests) to get her used to it and I was wandering if I should try this as we have only just adjusted to the new routine??