Please help with 4.5 month old OT

[katemom]

Hi,

My lo is 4.5 months old, and has been a short napper since about 1.5 months of age (with a 35 minute sleep cycle nap on the dot each time).  I survived the early months with by moving my lo out of his crib after he woke early from his nap, into a swing and extending his naps to keep his sleep totals up.  Finally, around 3 weeks ago, he started doing longer naps on his own in the crib, and I tried to move forward from there, and not rely on the swing anymore.  Well he did fine for awhile, but then started to go back to the short naps, so I've been trying to get back on track, but with daylight savings, and visitors and everything else, I'm losing control big time, and he is on an OT downward spiral that I need help fixing PLEASE!

When he's at his best he's capable of: 3-4 hours sleep during the day, and 11 hours at night.  He falls asleep independently. He sleeps through the night without a feeding.

When he's at his worst, he'll get maybe 2 hours of total day sleep, and as little as 9.5 hours at night.  He still falls asleep independently, but won't stay asleep for naps.  He wakes often during the night, and wakes early in the morning.   These are tough things to recover for him, because he is very sensitive and gets OT very easily.

What do you suggest to try to get back on track? 

Here's is yesterday's schedule and part of today's to tell you where we're currently at: (I just wrote the sleep part to keep it simple - feeds are every 4 hours at roughly 7, 11, 3, 7)

5:20 awake
8:30 asleep
9:30 awake
12:00 asleep
12:35 awake, (desperate, I put him in the swing to save the day/week, though haven't use it for weeks.)
1:00 asleep again
2:45 awake
4:55 asleep
5:30 awake
7:10 in bed for the night (but didn't go to sleep until 9:15 - I thought I was going to pull my hair out!  He doesn't cry, just squirms and grunts occasionally.)
9:15 finally asleep


3:45 awake for 15 minutes, then back to sleep on his own
5ish awake for 10 minutes or so
7:00 awake for the day
8:50 asleep
10:00 awake
12:05 asleep
12:50 awake, and quiet so I've left him alone in his crib as I write...hoping for a miracle that he'll go back to sleep, but he's starting to fuss now a bit.

So here we are...feeling hopeless and not sure how to proceed.

For awhile, he was doing okay on 1:45-2:00 awake times, but I don't know how to adjust it when he has a terrible night's sleep, or wakes early.  I reduce his A time to 1:30 usually after a short nap.  His schedule is all over the place, so I realize it's hard to give advice on only one day, but anything you suggest would be appreciated!!!

thanks, katemom

[lilac83]

Moving this over to Naps. I'll be back to post my thoughts!

[lilac83]

Okay, first of all, A time for a 4 month old is 1.75-2 hours. The morning A time is usually the shortest but looking at your routine from yesterday he was awake for over 3 hours! That put him OT right off the bat and messed up the rest of the days naps. Today his A time was 1 hour 50 minutes and he slept for over an hour! So, in the morning around the 1 hour 40 minute range, start watching closely for those tired cues. As soon as you see it, start wind down and into bed. Is he an independent sleeper, no props, etc?

[katemom]

Hi, THANK YOU FOR REPLYING!  I'm out of ideas and thankful for a fresh perspective!

Yes he is an independent sleeper, no props.  Still swaddled with one arm out - he's starting to roll both ways a little, so I was trying to start the weaning process slowly.  I should have said that after yesterday's awake time so early in the a.m., he stayed in his crib until 7am - very quiet and happy, but I heard enough sounds to know he wasn't asleep.  I read somewhere on the boards about not putting them down too early or it reinforces early waking - either I'm mistaken, or it wasn't the right advice to follow here.  So, do you think that no matter what time of day it is that he wakes up, you sort of try to stick within the usual A times that work for them, even if they are in the crib in a dark room?  I agree that I don't want to start the day any more OT than neccessary! 

Other than that, how do you suggest we move forward?  He never went back to sleep after he woke at 12:50, so I have him down again now (fell asleep at 2:35).  He'll wake up to feed a little after 3:00 I'm sure.  So with a short nap, I was thinking of putting him down again at 4:30, and he'll only do 35 minutes here as always, so he'll be up at a little after 5:00.  Then I was going to try to have him in his crib by 6:46-50, and hopefully asleep around 7pm, but yesterday's marathon attempt to fall asleep until 9:15 has me scared of bedtime tonight!  Anyway, does that sound like a good plan, or do you have any other suggestions? 

thanks, katemom!

[katemom]

Robin - keep helping!

I'm losing this OT war big time - and I need guidance here!

Here's how the rest of today has gone (after a 1:10 hour nap, and a 45 minute nap), I put him down again as I said at 2:35, and he slept til 3:10.  I had him in his crib again at 4:40, and he will not go to sleep - it's been an hour!  He doesn't cry, just grunts and squirms, but won't sleep.  This is just like last night's bedtime.  And he doesn't usually do this.  What's going on?  He will usually sleep, even if he doesn't stay asleep, he'll usually sleep!  So, I was trying to wait until he fell asleep, and then I'd note the time and wake him up so that it wasn't too long a catnap to interrupt bedtime, but now that it's 5:50, I guess I better get him up and get him in bed?  (oh, now he's quiet, I wonder if I should let him sleep 10 minutes?) Without a catnap, he'll be up for at least 3-3.5 hours by the time I get him in bed, then who knows how long he'll take to fall asleep, so that's why I was trying so hard for a catnap!  I'm not sure which is worse, giving him a bit of sleep so close to when he should be going to bed, or letting him go that long of a stretch.

I'll post again with an update of how the evening goes, unless you happen to be online now, than by all means chime in now!

katemom

[katemom]

A quick update: I let him sleep for 15 minutes for a catnap where I left off yesterday (not sure if that was the right thing to do), and got him asleep for the night by 7:20.  He slept continuously until 5am, then woke up quietly, and seemed to be trying to go back to sleep, but made little noises/grunted every 3-6 minutes, so I know he wasn't asleep.  Finally, at 6:20 he fell asleep, and is still sleeping now at 7am.  I can't remember what the rule is on this, if I should wake him up at 7 to start the day.  But I don't think I will since naps are so hard with him?  Anyway, that's the latest...

katemom

[lilac83]

Sounds like he had a super night! I would let him sleep in a bit, but probably no later than 8:00. Did you need to go in at all at 5:00 or did he fall back to sleep on his own?

I think at this point, your best bet will be to put him on a regular 4 hour EASY (how are his feeds? could he go 4 hrs?) and stay with that for a week to see what happens. In the morning, he seems to be ready around 1h 45 so start wind down a bit earlier first thing. As long as this nap is an hour long, he should be able to go the full 2 hours A time until the next nap. Watch him closely though. If he doesn't seem like he can make it, don't push him too much. It looks to me like he's ready though.

If you get a 40/45 minute nap, watch for his tired cues about 15 minutes earlier than normal. If you get a 30 minute nap, he may be ready for his next nap as much as 30 minutes earlier.

Let me know what you think and how things are going!

[katemom]

Thanks again for your continued help...

I just wanted to reply that he is already on 4 hour feeds (has been since 3 months because he wouldn't eat much if I fed him more often).  Now he's eating well, and seems happy on the 4 hour rotation, even if he isn't sleeping enough to be on it sometimes!  I'll try the 2 hour A times after naps of at least an hour and see how we do.  (He never shows tired signs unless he's OT, so I gauge how he is doing by how quickly he falls asleep, and how he wakes up from each nap).

Some follow-up questions:

1. Am I missing something on last night being a good night?  I could have been worse, but sleeping only 9.5 hours continuously with an extra half an hour on top is still a short night right?  He's done 11 hours in the past.  How can I help him improve his night sleep?

2a. I know that night sleep is connected to day sleep, so obviously I need to get good naps out of him.  (Easier said than done).  But what about that last chunk of the day, what do you suggest when I have a hard time fitting in 2 catnaps, but 1 isn't enough?  Using today as an example:

7:05 awake
8:50 asleep
10:10 awake
12:00 asleep
1:25 awake (this is how the day has gone so far, the rest is "projected"...)
3:25 asleep
4:00 awake
5:30 try for a catnap here since last one was short and the reduce the length?  Or just move bedtime WAY forward?
7:00-7:30 asleep for the night

2b. If I do squeeze an extra catnap in, how short should I keep it, or what time should I end it so that bedtime isn't ruined?  And if instead I bring bedtime forward, how soon do you suggest I move it?

***Not that I expect you to have all the answers, but you have definately been very knowledgable so far, and I appreciate all the advice!

thanks, katemom

[lilac83]

Hi katemom!

As far as the night goes, he did have an EW, but at least he wasn't having OT wakings throughout the night. So, hopefully he's not as OT as you think. Okay, break down of your day:

nap 1: 1h 20m nap after 1h 45m A time - you could try increasing A time here as this is technically a UT nap.
nap 2: 1h 25m nap after 1h 50m A time - again you could increase A time a bit
nap 3: do you wake him from this nap? You could let him sleep as long as he'd like here and then you probably won't need a
         catnap.

You should only need 1 cat nap with the 4 hour EASY. Has your LO ever been a 2 hour napper? His daytime naps today actually look pretty good. Two 1.5-2 hour naps and a 30-45 minute catnap is the amount of sleep a 4 month old needs during the day. If you do need to try to squeeze in 2 catnaps due to a short nap, I would keep it only 30 minutes long and wake up at least 1.5 hours from bedtime. However, I think with you increasing A time and naps (hopefully) increasing, you'll only need that one catnap.

HTH!

[katemom]

Hi again Robin - wow, you are a bundle of information!  I've never heard of a 1:20 nap as UT - that is very interesting, is there more info. on that somewhere on boards, or can you tell me more about that as a rule of thumb?  (I'm sure I'll need all the trouble shooting info. I can get with this little guy in the year(s) ahead).  I'll definately try increasing his A time, because today it actually seemed he wasn't as ready as usual when I laid him down in his crib.  No, he's never been a 2 hour napper, 1:30 used to pretty much his norm if it wasn't a short nap, but I've had the occasional 1:45. 

No, I don't wake him from his catnap, he always sleeps 35 minutes on the dot.

Anyway, thanks again for everything, and for giving me some new info. to "add to the pot." 

katemom

[lilac83]

Well, the average sleep cycle is 45 minutes long, so 2 cycles would be 1 hour 30 minutes long. Meaning your LO wasn't tired enough to make it all the way through 2 sleep cycles. This info is all on this website throughout various threads. I've basically learned much of what I know reading through threads on here. Do you have the BW books? A lot of info is in them too. Good luck with extending those A times!

[katemom]

Hi again Robin - thanks for the explanation of the UT/2 sleep cycle guide, that makes a lot of sense.  My lo's sleep cycle is 35 minutes, so it helps to know that any nap under 1:10 is mostly likely UT - and that helped me with determining to extend A times more.  (And yes, I do own most of the BW books - love them!)

So, extending A times has been good, naps have been longer most of the time.  And I think things are going better for stretching out the day more evenly with sleeps although he sometimes still ends up having that long A chunk at the end of the day.  I've also been really conscious of his bedtime, I try not to get him OT at that point, so it won't take him forever to fall asleep.  However, I'm still having trouble with early morning awake parties, so I don't know if that is still caused by OT (his overall sleep totals are still lowish - under 14 hours), or if some other cause is the reason?  He will sometimes only be awake like 20 minutes, but it more often an hour or more.  Here are the last 2 days to give you an idea - if you see anything else I could do...let me know!

Asleep at 7:30 the night before...

3:30 awake
4:00 asleep
6:40 awake for the day
8:55 asleep
10:15 awake
12:25 asleep
1:45 awake
4:00 asleep
4:35 awake
7:20 asleep

5:00 awake
6:15 asleep
6:30 awake
6:45 asleep
7:25 awake
9:05 asleep (normally 2 hours A time here, but was SO tired, I offered nap here)
9:40 awake
9:50 asleep
11:25 awake
1:30 asleep
2:05 awake (short nap here, was it because too long nap in a.m. or not enough A time?)
4:15 asleep
4:50 awake
7:05 asleep

5:00 awake
6:10 asleep
7:00 awake

(Again, when he wakes in the wee hours of the morning, he doesn't cry, just chats or makes little noises.  He often tricks me into thinking he's asleep but then he'll make another little noise just to keep my hopes down!)

anyway, thanks for the all the help, let me know if you have any more suggestions!

katemom

[lilac83]

Here's an excellent link about early wakings, you can see if anything jumps out at you. What do you think would happen if you extend another 5 minutes or so? Do you think he would go OT? His naps have definitely improved, but he hasn't quite hit the 1.5-2 hour mark which is ideal for his age. This may be part of the problem in the morning.

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=87109.0