22m, won't nap and if she does, wakes up grumpy - also is EW

[MrGreedy]

hi, my dd2 is 22m and has refused to nap in the day for a couple of months now - it became such hard work that I resorted to taking her out in the pram/car and she'd eventually fall asleep. However I can't always do that as I also have a 3yr old and it's just not possible all the time. 

She'll sleep for about 1hr 20 mins but she almost always wakes up really grumpy and can cry and be really whingy/clingy for up to 2 hrs. 
This has gone on for at least 6 months even when she slept in her cot in the day but I perservered with it because if she doesn't nap she is horrid by 4.30pm for about an hour but then seems to become ok again until she goes to bed.
Routine is completely out of the window and I play it by ear depending on whether she naps or not - last night/today looked like this:

10.30pm (crying out and sat up in bed, settled very easily when I tucked her in)
3.15am shouting out but I think it was a dream...I settled her and she went straight back to sleep (she never usually wakes at this time)
5.15am - made an attempt to get up but after putting her back to bed tiwce she slept until 6.20am.
6.20am got up
7.45am breakfast
9.30am snack
11.30 lunch
3pm snack
5.30pm tea
6.30pm bed
(no nap today as I couldn't get out) - she was quite grumpy this afternoon but nothing compared to how she is after she wakes up from a nap...

she used to always wake between 5-5.30am - we resorted to giving her bottle of milk and she'd sleep till 6.30-7am some days.  We stopped doing that when she started waking in the night demanding milk and so she has for a couple of weeks slept till about 6am - she sometimes cries out about 10.30-11pm but settles very easily.

I just don't think she is getting enough sleep - personally I'd like to try and get her to sleep later in the morning and not nap in the day because she is so awful when she wakes up that I end up wishing she'd neevr gone to sleep - when she sleeps in late (almost never!) she is so lovely all day and doesn't seem to need a nap at all on those days...could this be the answer (getting her to sleep in later?) and if so how do I do it?  or is she just too young not to have a nap but if so, why is she so horrid when she wakes from it?

please help, I am so confused as to what to do for the best but she is grumpy and whingy a lot of the time and I'm sure she's tired!!

[Colin Macs Mom]

Bumping up for you

[deckchariot]

when you do offer the nap, what time do you offer it?  I'm wondering if the nap is just at an off time and she's waking before she's fully rested and that's why she's so grumpy.  I know of no secret to get bubs to sleep in in the morning (though every Saturday I wish I did!), but maybe someone else knows one   She is fairly young to drop her nap, but it's not out of the question.  Her bedtime does seem a bit early - by her age, most bubs do not need 12 hrs at night anymore - more like 11.5 or some even less - so I might try pushing bedtime back a bit, although I suspect that's close to impossible if she doesn't nap.

[MrGreedy]

3 days a week she is at nursery and they get them to sleep at about 12pm ish (all except her) - I collect her at 1pm and so she usually sleeps from 1.30pm ish - even if she goes to sleep earlier (today was 11am as she was up at 5.20am!!!), she still only had an hour and was v grumpy when she woke...we don't normally put her to bed so early (she normally goes at 7pm when not napped, 7.30pm when she has but the other day she was so tired I didn't see the point in keeping her up - all that seems to do is make her wake at the same time but she's more grumpy as she's had less sleep).. last night she hadn't napped in the day and was asleep by 7.10pm but then woke earlier than the day before when she went to bed at 6.30pm!!  your comment about 12 hrs made me laugh...she's never ever done that I don't think!! 
really am at a loss at what to do.....thanks for your reply tho!

[deckchariot]

Has she ever napped at daycare?  I'm guessing that the 1:30 nap is too late for her, but if she's not sleeping at daycare, there's not much you can do about that.  Then because the nap is late, she doesn't nap well, wakes still tired, and now you're stuck in an OT cycle.  When you put her to bed at 6:30 - when did she wake?  If she got more sleep than when you put her down at 7:10, then maybe do that early of a bedtime when she doesn't have a nap  - if you can somehow get her a bit caught up on sleep, perhaps the routine will settle down a bit.  I'm really at a loss - I'll see if someone else can have a look.

[Vicku]

Hi!
I think it definitely sounds like she's OT. If that is the cause of the no naps and NWs or a reaction to them is hard to say...
Has she always been hard to get to nap? If this really is a new thing then it is very possible that she is dropping the nap early. How long has this been going on? And at what age did she transition from 2 to 1 nap? I'm just wondering because if she was early doing that she might be early doing this too.
If you do think she's going to drop the nap already, early bedtimes will probably be necessary for a while until she adjusts. And just like you might have to switch between 2 and 1 nap for a while during that transition, you might have to do some no-nap days and some nap-days for a while.
The only reason I know of why she would be waking in such a bad mood after naps would be because of OT.
She's not teething is she? That can also disrupt naps, especially if she is moving towards dropping them soon.

[MrGreedy]

she did used to have a nap at nursery but in the last month or so has refused to go to sleep...I'll be honest I haven't put her to bed in the day for about 2 months now as she just cried and cried and it would take ages for her to go to sleep and then she'd be so grumpy when she woke I had to sit her on my knee for absolutely ages - I didn't think it fair on my other child as my 22m daughter was getting all my time and attention!!  when she was having 2 naps, she'd go down for the first one like a dream but then would always fight the second one..I think she went to one when she was about 11m but can't really remember!  she started early wakings when she was just 8m and we've battled with it since then...she attempted to get up at 4.45am today but with a bit of persuasion did go back to sleep till 6.15am which wasn't too bad!

not sure if she's teething as I can't get my finger anywhere near the back of her mouth without it being bitten but she's not really showing any symptoms..

when I put her to bed at 6.30pm, I think she was asleep for 6.45pm and she slept until 6am without a peep...

I think I will try the early bedtime for a while and see how we get on and then if she does seem to need a nap in the day, I'll make her have one if poss and then put her to bed a bit later..thanks for the advice!

[Vicku]

I think I will try the early bedtime for a while and see how we get on and then if she does seem to need a nap in the day, I'll make her have one if poss and then put her to bed a bit later..thanks for the advice!

Hoping that the early bedtimes will help recover from the OT and hopefully from the grumpiness It's probably all part of her transitioning to no nap  from the sounds of it. Catnaps in the car etc on the days where she seems extra tired might help too in combatting OT, and on those days as you say, you can do a later/normal bedtime which can also help reset the morning wake ups if they tend to get earlier and earlier with the early bedtimes.
Good luck!