had some progress, and are now back to square one

[dannabanana]

so i'm not sure what to do next. to keep a long story short, i've been sleep training my 13 month old son for the past month or so to fall asleep alone. I've been sitting next to his bed after a usual night routine, but ignoring, and putting him back down when he stood up in bed.
It was working like magic at first!! and he even stopped waking up at night (or rather, he stopped crying for us, and just went back to sleep).
after a few weeks of the sleep training, i had to take him to my bed for his nap, and i think thats where things went bonkers. he's now back to waking up at night and crying for us, and also for the past few mornings, he's been waking up earlier and earlier. this morning was 4:30AM!!! i managed to do put down again and stayed until he fell back asleep at 5AM, but then he was up for good at 6AM   

I'm not sure where to go from here. i would like to get him back on track, to fall back asleep alone at night and to not wake up so early in the morning, but i really don't know how...
It seems like every time i take one big step ahead with him sleep wise, we end up taking a few back after a while. it's really starting to get to me, and i'm soon expecting #2 to pop out.
HELP 

[deckchariot]

{{{{{hugs}}}}}  Can you  post what his day looks like - in terms of when he wakes, when he naps (and for how long) and when he goes to bed?  That's a good place to start.  Some regression is really normal when doing sleep training (keep in mind, he's gone to sleep for 1 way his whole life, and changing that won't be quick or easy), that's why consistency is so important.  I would go back to doing the gradual withdrawal you were doing or wi/wo.  here's a link that explains the two:  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0

hth
michelle

[speechie]

Hugs- it's amazing at this age, their memory is so strong- so one nap in your room can set things back a bit- michelle is right, consistency will help you get through this blip!
Get your plan together and don't give up! You'll get there!

[dannabanana]

hi again,

my LO's day looks roughly like this:
- around 6am wake up. We've managed to get him to stay in his own bed and keep himself busy until around 7am. he used to come to our bed when he woke but i thought it might get in the way of the sleep training, though he hardly ever went back to sleep there.
- usually after about 4 hours he would go down for the AM nap, so around 10am. I only let him sleep for 30min, after i found out that that's the only way for him to go down again in the PM hours.
- again, 4 to 4.5 hours after waking up he would go back to sleep. it often happens to be in the stroller, but would also be in bed. this nap used to be 1hour, but lately has only been 30-45min (2-1 transition??)
- bed time would be the same deal, depending on how long his last nap was. i try to put him down about 4 hours after he woke up, but sometimes he'd be in bed not wanting to sleep for a really long time, and would fall asleep later. generally his bedtime would be between 7-8pm.

i'm trying hard to be consistent, although it's hard on days when he wakes up so early and cries in bed, and all i want to do is just bring him to our bed and at least rest some more before getting up...

[deckchariot]

It definitely sounds like you're in the midst of the 2 to 1 switch which is why the naps are a bit wonky and you're getting the EWs.  There are basically 2 approaches to the switch:
1) keep 1st nap at the same A time every day, but gradually shorten the length of it; at the same time, move pm nap earlier (by the same amount you shorten nap 1).  When nap 1 is <30 min, attempt to cut it out and just have 1 nap.
2) push morning A time later, allow your bub to sleep as long as they want in the am, then do a late pm catnap (can be a shorter A time than in the am, as you don't want them to take a full nap); eventually cut out pm catnap.

If he needs a longer A time before bed, then option #1 is generally better.  If he doesn't and HATES being woken from the am nap, option #2 may be better.  In both cases, you can offer an early bedtime if one/both of the naps is bad.

Whichever approach you choose - it's best to go gradually - so either cut 15 min off the am nap every 3-5 days or lengthen the am A time by 15 min every 3-5 days.  It also is helpful to know about how much day sleep is "optimal" for your ds and how much A time he needs (minimum) between his last nap and bedtime - that can help you plan out the day.

hth
michelle

[dannabanana]

Thanks Michelle!
The only problem i have with the transition is that taking away the AM nap does not promise me a longer PM nap, and if i let him nap in the AM as long as he wants he just won't take the PM nap at all. and i'm never sure how long i can let him be up between nap and bedtime... i've tried a few times to cut down gradually, but i end up going back to the same way just for the sake of him sleeping a bit more.

i mean, how early can i put him in bed when he only had a 30min nap at around 11am? when i tried it a few times, it just seemed like he was waking up EVEN EARLIER in the morning!!

[dannabanana]

I moved the chair half way towards the door these last few nights. that worked out just fine.

I do have a question though:
from the moment i put him in bed and until he finally decides to put his head down, he keeps getting up and tosses both his dummy and his teddy out of bed. after a while he starts crying for them. this will go on for around 20 min, about 4 or 5 times. how can i get him to stop doing that so that when i'm finally out of his room i won't have to run in every few minutes to pick his stuff off the floor?? he also asks for water a few times before settling down, but i'm reluctant to put the water in his bed as i know it will be one more thing for me to pick up off the floor (and i'm getting heavier by the moment...)

[deckchariot]

sorry for not responding earlier - we just moved, so I was without internet service for a bit.  In terms of the nap switch - I went with the long am nap/short pm nap because if I shortened the am nap, she wouldn't sleep at all in the pm  - just like you've described.  The key to getting a 2nd pm nap was to figure out how much total day sleep she needed, and how much A time she needed (minimum) between the pm nap and bedtime.  I found that she need 2.5 hrs of day sleep, and needed a minimum of 3hrs between pm nap and bedtime.  so, if she slept for 2 hrs in the am (remember, if you go for a long am nap, you need to push that A time gradually out so the am nap gets later and later), I knew she needed 30 min in the pm, and if I wanted her to go to bed at 7:30, that meant she needed to by up by 4:30, so I put her down around 4.  The pm catnap gets really late in the day, which is why that approach only works if your bub doesn't need a lot of A time between the pm nap and bedtime.   Does that help?

You mention an 11:00 nap for 30 min - did you limit it to 30 min?  If he's napping at 11, that's a late nap, and I'd go with the long am nap approach then.  Most mums who limit the first nap are offering that nap much earlier in the day (usually around 10).  So if he naps at 11 and you let him sleep as long as he wants and he sleeps for 1.5 hrs and is up at 12:30, you'd probably want to try a catnap around 4ish for 30 min or so and see how that works.

With the bedtime antics.....do you think he's OT at bedtime because of the napping issues?  If so, that could be why he's doing that.  I'd move his bedtime 30 min earlier and see if that helps.  If you don't think he's OT, then I'd do wi/wo and pick up the toys when you walk in, put them in his crib, say your phrase "it's time for night night" and leave.  Interact with him as little as possible, so it's not really interesting for him to have you there.  If it doesn't improve, I'd maybe pick them up once and then say "that's the last time, if you drop them again, you'll have to sleep without them".  Consistency is soooooooo key at this age - they will quickly figure out if they can get you to cave in....

hang in there!!!

[dannabanana]

Thanks again for replying Michelle!

You mention an 11:00 nap for 30 min - did you limit it to 30 min?  If he's napping at 11, that's a late nap, and I'd go with the long am nap approach then.  Most mums who limit the first nap are offering that nap much earlier in the day (usually around 10).  So if he naps at 11 and you let him sleep as long as he wants and he sleeps for 1.5 hrs and is up at 12:30, you'd probably want to try a catnap around 4ish for 30 min or so and see how that works.

The problem with his nap is that he will not go down earlier, and if i let him sleep as much as he wants (which will 99% of the time only be one hour) he will refuse a PM nap. I usually put him down for a 30min nap 4 hours after he woke up, and then 4 hours after he wakes put him down again for as long as he needs (again, would seldom go over one hour). then i usually try to have him in bed 3 hours after his PM nap.
Sometimes he would refuse the AM nap, and then i just give him an earlier lunch if possible, and put him down right after. in this case he would only get a total of 1 hour sleep during the day, and sometimes even only 30min!! tha'ts why i'm really not too excited about the one nap thing.

With the bedtime antics.....do you think he's OT at bedtime because of the napping issues?  If so, that could be why he's doing that.  I'd move his bedtime 30 min earlier and see if that helps. 

i'm really not sure if it's OT or not. i've tried many times to move his bedtime up. some times it would result in a beautiful and quiet night followed by a normal waking time, and sometimes in a horror night followed by EW... but then again he's teething now so i'm really not sure what's what.


I have been having another problem. When we started the sleep training, Sky would sleep through the night. if he woke up he would calm himself back to sleep alone. it was heaven! but then the weather started getting so great that we would spend most of the day out and about, and therefore his naps would end up being in the stroller... i have a feeling that since then, he wakes at night again and cries for us... or am i wrong to think this?? i decided that for the next week at least we'll be having the naps at home, or at least one of the 2 naps. could it be any other reason???

Thanks again for all your great help!!!

[deckchariot]

the nap switch often causes NWs - in fact, that and teething are about the only time we get NWs with Abby.  It could be because of the stroller napping.  If you can stay home at least for whichever nap you want to be the long nap, that will probably help navigate the switch as well.  If he'll only sleep for an hour at 11, then he's not OT for that nap, he's probably UT.  So if you want that nap to be the short one, I'd go ahead and do it earlier - try 10:30 and wake him at 11 - he won't be tired enough to want to sleep much longer anyway.  And if you're out and about, he might be willing to nod off earlier.  Then, since you know he can handle 4 hrs of A time, I wouldn't start his pm nap any earlier than 3 and let him sleep.  If you want to go the other direction, I'd start extending the time you put him down for that first nap - go to 11:15 for a few days, then 11:30 and let him sleep.  Then if you try for 3 hrs of A time between last nap and bed, and bedtime is 7:30, I'd not put him down for a pm nap til 4 and then wake him at 4:30 (or you could  try the pm nap at 3:30 if the am  nap is shorter).  I have a feeling if you extend his A time, his nap will lengthen, it's just a matter of which A time you want to extend - first one or the one between naps

[dannabanana]

this morning he woke up at 5:30am and didn't go back to sleep. refused a nap 4 hours later, and only at 11am went back to sleep. i guess i'll let him sleep as much as he can (I'd be very surprised if it's over an hour) and put him to bed super early, hoping tomorrow he will wake up at 7...

 

[dannabanana]

and for a further update... he woke up after 30min...........

[deckchariot]

{{{{{hugs}}}}}  I'm sorry you're having a rough day!

When you put him down at 9:30 and he didn't nap - what was he doing and what did you try?  I suspect when you put him down at 11, he was already OT and that's why you got the 30 min nap.  When you put him down for a pm nap, I would not wait 4 hrs, I would put him down after no more than 3 hrs of A time.

the 2 to 1 switch is really hard!  Have you checked out the support thread?  Sometimes it helps just knowing that others are going through the same things.  And trust me, you will get through it and it will get better!  hang in there!!!