Author Topic: PLEASE HELP - 4 week LO awake for 4 hours+ EVERY NIGHT!!!!  (Read 1451 times)

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Offline georgyporgysmum

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PLEASE HELP - 4 week LO awake for 4 hours+ EVERY NIGHT!!!!
« on: September 14, 2009, 08:21:28 am »
Hello all

I am back after 3 years of BWing my beloved DS who is now 3 years old.

I had our little DD 4 weeks ago (3 weeks2D early).

I am actually in a living nightmare at the moment with coping with these nights. Her days are not fantastic either but the nights are a serious priority at the moment. I am this morning 'waking' (from no sleep) from another night of hours of fussing and trying to get LO to sleep. Cannot sleep to catch up in day because of 3 year old DS.

Ok - I'll try to give some of the info you need.

She was 3weeks 2d early.
Weighed 5lb12 at birth and 6lb5 2weeks ago.
I think she has some spirited/touchy features but not sure just yet
She feeds roughly 3 hourly around the 24hr clock. (should she still need to?)
Formula fed with one BF in the morning topped up with FF.
Eating loads - taking between 60-100ml per feed. Each day totals 550-650ml.
Trying a 12 hour day from 7/8am to 7/8pm.
Has a big wake time normally after first days feed at 7/8. Awake to 9.30 but sometimes all the way to the next feed at 10/11.
Feeds at 10/11, then has deep sleep through to next feed - sometimes have to feed her in her sleep for 1/2pm feed.often WILL NOT wake up at all. Continues sleeping to 4/5pm feed. (This pattern has howver mostly changed in last week and more awake in day but nights are now worse???)
If we're lucky, then awake for an hour or so - may sleep again before atartgin night time routine to sleep again. Feed at 7pm straight to bed.
First stretch of night sleep from 7-10pm good. Dream feed at 10/10.30.Goes back down okish if she hasn't woken til 1/2am. Wakes for 1/2am feed.

This is where the problems are. she wakes for feed at 1/2am, and then can't get her back asleep for at least an hour (after 30mins feeding and burping), often awakw/fussing/trying to shh patt through to the next feed at 5am ish. Then next feed at 4/5am has same problems going down again sometimes back asleep by 6am. She is extremely windy needing 10-20 winds per feed which really wakes her up even more. Started using infacol a few days ago - really helping with wind but again coinciding with longer fuss/wake times at night. She is swaddled and I think she hates it but arms will fly other wise.

When shes awake/fussing, she squeaks, grunts, curls in a ball all very tense and loudly and escalates to a cry if you don't either shh/patt or shh/rub, or pick up if bad. She finds it hard to get past the jolts when shes going off as she grunts, rooting+++ curls up everytime and we spend hours going round in circles trying to get past the jolts. Dummy does satisfy most of the time, we not using it 50% of time, still trying it out, but it pops out all night and she still seems to spend 1-2 hours trying to get to sleep with it. Not crying all night unless we don't intervene enough and it escalates, she sometimes 'shout' cries before escalating, sometimes screams out aswell. Frantically rooting all the time at night regardless of feeding. SSHh patt/ shh rub worked for a few days with hand on chest also, now spending hours over crib with no success most of the time.

We've tried full feeeds at night feeds (she takes full feeds at night), and less feed to get her back down. less feed did not work last night but should we try again?

I know this was night/day confusion at first what with long sleep stretch in afternoons. But up unitl last few days we literally could not wake her all afternoon even to the point of spendng hours lifting, poking, talking, undressing etcetcetc. Just last few days she is awake alot more in the day, but actually this has coincided with even longer wake times in the night so it seems that the amount of day sleep is not correlating at all to night wake times.

Her naps times in the day are fairly bad, like I said maybe one nap 1 hour after first feed, then long stretch in afternoon, and maybe another short nap early evening (if she even woke early enough from long nap). So EASY not happening really at all in the day. Also very hard with 3 year running round screaming and playing happily which I don't want to restrict his life too much. Days naps vary from needing loads of intervention & dummy to not needing anything at all - seemingly totally random. Also shes fairly high demand in the day, crying often to be held (i really try not to let this develop too muc - very aware of this), wondering if she overtired in the day.

This is loads of info. I don't know what to try next. I'm pulling my hair out. My DH works away for two night per week and I on my own those niths. Last week I almost lost my mind and cried for 2 whole days and the 2 nights that were affected and managed to survive unitl he got back. He has a week off this week and we need a new strategy to fix this as much as poss before he goes back to work next week. DH very supportive and my angel, very supportive of BW techniques.

Are we expecting too much too soon?
Is this becasue she was early?
Should we be ignoring all the fussing?(but it only winds her up and escalates if we do)we would need to put her in other room with monitor as the noise cannot be ignored easily.
Could the infacol be disagreeing with her (although helping with burps)?
How can we continue to address the night/day confusion?
How can i implmenet EASY when she won't wkae up? Toddler running round being ignored?
Is she too young / small to try to drop the 1/2am feed yet? (this is my next plan maybe tonight to stretch this feed time using a dummy and shh patt to go back to sleep)
Why has she worsened from just waking at 1am and 4am for feeds- to now not going back to sleep after aswell?
Should we try to shift the long sleep stretch in the day to start later and later in the day (ie let it happen but try to move it progressively laterie not expect wake time beofre bed routine)?
Is this a growht spurt at 4 weeks? (1 week adjusted though)
Do we just stop trying to wake her and let her sleep and just give the feeds? It seems the more we try to manipulate the situation the worse it gets.
Is she overtired??? Or sleeping too much???? I don't even know

 ??? ??? ??? :'( :'( :'( ??? ??? ??? :'( :'( :'(

Any help / suggestions greatly appreciated - I know there are so many variables with what this could be - anything I haven't thought of??? What should be our priority this week with DH home??

Thanks for reading such a long desperate post. Very upset about the fact I don't know what this LO wants.

Caroline (averaging 2-3 hours sleep per night for the last 2 weeks) :'(



Caroline - mum to George & Amelia Rose

Offline sarahjenn

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Re: PLEASE HELP - 4 week LO awake for 4 hours+ EVERY NIGHT!!!!
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2009, 12:58:25 pm »
Poor you - big hugs!

My DD did go through a brief stage of these long NWs, and she had had a similar pattern of almost unconscious sleep in the day, and it was also as this was changing for her to be more awake in the day that her nights seemed to go wrong. I ended up trying to sleep while holding my hand on her in the moses basket next to the bed, and shhing and putting the dummy back in again and again, then thankfully after a couple of weeks it started to get better. Oh - I also changed her formula - for some reason Aptamil disagreed with her - seemed to give her cramping tummy pains - and SMA was better.

Here's hoping it gets better for you.

Sarah x

Offline georgyporgysmum

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Re: PLEASE HELP - 4 week LO awake for 4 hours+ EVERY NIGHT!!!!
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2009, 18:13:13 pm »
Hi Sarah thanks for your post. Glad you had a 'brief' period of this!

Interesting that you had same night prob when day waking was increasing - how old was your Lo at the time? maybe this is a period of adjustment to night time sleep after a period of confusion then? Was there anything in particular you did or avoided that you think fixed it? Were you doing 2 night feeds also at the time?

Your picture of laying next to the crib with hand on /replugging is exactly what DH are ending up doing all night at the mo! Amazing how we find people with the same stories!

Interesting aswell about formula. She's on SMA at the mo, usually its Aptamil that people swap to, rather than from, isn't it? I'm wondering about gastric issue just due to excessive curling/ squeaking and apparent mild discomfort (or just newborn squirming - not sure). have been to Gp to query reflux becuase sometimes looks uncomfortable before minor spit ups but this could be all Los?, she said 'colic' and 'as long as she's putting on weight come back in a month' (in between making a phone call to shout at the receptionist for making appointments delayed that morning) which I don't believe becasue she does not have bouts of uncontrollable crying at all and I think they just say that when they don't know what else, she suggested I try Infacol. Wondering if its worth swapping to Aptamil but its a big deal to change formula isn't it? Worried anything I try might make things worse.

Did you find nights with dummy usage were worse because of waking up for it? I think we are finding this. I haven't yet tried dummy plus swaddle plus shh/pat, usually I either do dummy + swaddle, or shh/patt + swaddle, but do not use all the tools at once! maybe I should. I'm finding totally random success at the mo, with not much succes. maybe I should accidental parent just to get her back to sleep to get the day/night balance sorted out, and then concentrate on sleep training afterwards.

As you can see, lots of maybes......

And you can probably tell i'm not crying as I write this post so in an up part of the day as both LOs are just into bed. My crying usually starts when I see that its 3 or 4am and she's been awake since 1.30a and i realise how long I've been trying to get her to sleep, and definitely once the sun starts rising the tears really flow.. :-\

Thanks again
Caroline - mum to George & Amelia Rose

Offline sarahjenn

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Re: PLEASE HELP - 4 week LO awake for 4 hours+ EVERY NIGHT!!!!
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2009, 20:47:05 pm »
It was mainly when DD was about 3 to 6 weeks old, so right about the same time. The doctor did say at 8 weeks that she seemed to have reflux - she was always prone to being really sick - you should see the state of our carpet!

We didn't really swaddle her much at all, so just shh-pat and dummy. My impression was that the dummy really helped overall - for night-times and naps. We had to wean her off it at six months, though, as she had become completely dependent on it for falling asleep, and it was leading to some night wakings.

I think we were doing two night feeds at the time (plus dream feed around 11) - we didn't wake her for her feeds, though, so the timing of them varied quite a lot. I used a three-hour structure just to work out the window during which she couldn't possibly be hungry after a night feed, so if she fussed for the whole three hours I would then feed her again.

I wish I could remember some magic thing we did, but I don't think there was one - though I was quite careful about trying to keep her on a classic 3-hour EASY during the day to try to get things back on track.

Hope tonight is relatively OK - I always feel a bit better once the sun starts rising, but I didn't have two to take care of!

Sarah x

Offline annette.xx

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Re: PLEASE HELP - 4 week LO awake for 4 hours+ EVERY NIGHT!!!!
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2009, 21:19:26 pm »
Hi there!!

sounds like my LO as a tiny bub...she was 2 wks early, 6 lb 5, I bf, she had reflux and colic - I also used infacol which brought the wind up well but I think sometimes if they have reflux it also can bring up a bit of sick!!!

does she cry when laid down? sign of refux not wanting to be laid flat and pulling legs up/arching back etc...

She will grow out of it very soon so dont despair too much (easier said than done I know all too well!!)... My LO was the extreme of touchy...she would cry and cry on and off all night from 5 pm to 5am...(yes you read that right!!)

techniques I used to release the wind which helped;

rubbing upwards on her back on the left side of the back while against me (stomach is in this area) I couldnt pat as it aggrecated the reflux...

lifting her legs up and down

putting her in kind of a sitting position and circleing her body while holding chin in my hand or rocking her back and forward gently....this really gets the wind out good!!

The thing that helped me the most I think was one sided BF at that age ...so not switching just keeping her on one boob until she completely empties it (they never empty completely always hind milk to be had somewhere!!) The foremilk has sugars in that aggrevate colic and upset tummy - one breast has more calories to be had than 2 if they are on it for ages as the hindmilk takes so long to get to and has soooo many calories!!

the day routine is key...stick to time slots in daytime more than anything...I know its hard sometimes to wake them but it pays off if you can...get all the wake time in the day where possible...as soon as i mastered a routine in day the nights improved dramatically!

I know exactly how you are feeling...I felt awful, I felt like a failure and was even getting angry at poor DD who didnt deserve it poor thing!

HTH a bit...good luck

Annette.xx

Offline georgyporgysmum

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Re: PLEASE HELP - 4 week LO awake for 4 hours+ EVERY NIGHT!!!!
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2009, 19:25:56 pm »
Thanks Annette & Sarah

I used the winding technique rocking back and forth which gave me another option that works thanks.

Yes I will prioritise EASY in the day. Day sleep /wake times are getting better so its a little bit more do-able. Biggest challenge is sleep training for naps with my darling 3yoldbeing around and wanting to play etc. It upsets me coz I feel i'm ignoring him for loads of the day in doing sleep training that is taking long time each nap.

Last night was a bit better in that i decided to try to drop the 1/2am feed and see what happens. I resettled her from the 1.30 am waking for 1.5 hours to 3am to delay the feed. (It wasn;t so stressful as this was a decision I made so expected to have sleep disrupted for this purpose) .She didn't cry in hunger at all either so i think that wake may be habitual. And when she did feed, she didn't seem more hungry than if sh'e had it earlier. then she slept well from 4am (took 30 mins to settle after being drowsy with bottle feed) to 6.30am when she woke fussinf for next feed which i treated as the first for the day.

I hope to keep this feed again at around 3/4am to take her through to her first morning feed around 7am - this will at least reduce the amount of wakings to one with one period of resettling required.

I looked at my (obssesive) notes from when my DS was this age and he was managing to go from 10pm dreamfeed to 3/4am at this point and he was born/weighed at same time/weight. I know they are different LOs but wanted to make sure she is ok to drop this feed at this point. Actually I hope to she will take a bigger feed (whihc is what happened last night) so it doesn't actually affect her total day intake.

I might also try wake to sleep around 1am tonight to see if that stops her waking that early and plan to feed her not earlier than 3am (obviously unless she is crying for hunger).

Thanks again for your encouragement and ideas.

Caroline :)
Caroline - mum to George & Amelia Rose

Offline annette.xx

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Re: PLEASE HELP - 4 week LO awake for 4 hours+ EVERY NIGHT!!!!
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2009, 21:16:47 pm »
sounds like progress already!

If it helps my LO dropped the 2am feed at about 8 wks by herself...they do just stop waking for it once they dont need it!! but then saying that if they dont need it they sometimes wake for comfort suckling so maybe she could have a suckle on a dummy instead!!

you are doing a great job...miles more confident than I was ...im sure you will be really good again at this and with this progress all ready she will probably STTN by 3/ 4 months! Tho dont worry if not...Im still working on that one now!! (7 months!!) but im a soft touch...big time!

keep me updated

Annette.xx

Offline georgyporgysmum

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Re: PLEASE HELP - 4 week LO awake for 4 hours+ EVERY NIGHT!!!!
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2009, 20:03:14 pm »
Just an update on how things are going

Last 2 nights we've still been delaying the 1/2 am feed.

Night before last I shuffled her at 1am to try Wake to sleep, she then didn't wake and I woke before her at 4am and she still hadn't woke so we dreamfed her that feed and she went straight back down (was asleep still anyway) until 6.15am and woke fussing then ifed her at about 6.45am (trying to start day at 7am).

Last night she woke at 2am and I resettled her few times with dummy until 3am. She woke drowsily fussing, fed her, she fell back asleep drinking- put her back down, she woke at 7am for next feed.

I hope this is progress, we are all certainly getting more sleep and she is also sleeping more hours total across the whole night  (addressing the night/day confusion). I do feel like its cheating a bit thought becuase some of the feeds she's practically having a dreamfeed so I'm not having to help her get back to sleep. I will try W2S again tonight as the other night may have been a coincidence.

I know we're not really doing any sleep training during the night hours in that she's mostly sleeping or falling asleep on bottle last few nights, but I want to prioritise getting her to actually know that night is for sleeping for now!
Caroline - mum to George & Amelia Rose

Offline georgyporgysmum

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Re: PLEASE HELP - 4 week LO awake for 4 hours+ EVERY NIGHT!!!!
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2009, 20:07:45 pm »
forgot to add - that feeding her half asleep she is much more relaxed and therefore has much less wind, reducing the amount of winding needed and therefore less likely to wake her up fully.

Reading BW solve your problems, I can't see clearly which age/weight it says they only need one feed at night. The example EASY for a4 week old seems to imply no night feed at all (??) with the dreamfeed at 10-11 and next feed at 7am - so Tracy expects 4 week old to go from 11pm to 7am??
Caroline - mum to George & Amelia Rose

Offline annette.xx

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Re: PLEASE HELP - 4 week LO awake for 4 hours+ EVERY NIGHT!!!!
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2009, 20:16:17 pm »
I think its somewhere around 16 wks normally so no panic yet!! I was still feeding mine if she woke until about 5 months and she still manages night without feeds now so its not damageed her long term!

sounds like you are doing so well...I wish I was that good with my LO at that age...she was the boss big time!!

keep doing what you are doing...you are using your mummy instinct and sounds like you are such a natural!

great stuff!!

Annette.xx

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Re: PLEASE HELP - 4 week LO awake for 4 hours+ EVERY NIGHT!!!!
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2009, 20:38:30 pm »
Thanks for your encouragement Annette. I don't feel confident at all with this LO, she seems so much more of a firecracker than my DS and is really throwing me off balance alot, I'm just thinking through the BW theory which is keeping me sane!
Caroline - mum to George & Amelia Rose