A 2 to 1 transition question. Please help if you can

[saltyqueen]

Hi,

My daughter is almost 12 months old and her second nap has become a problem. She often cries really hard beforehand, sometimes for as long as 20 minutes. After she finally falls asleep, she's often awake and crying 40 minutes later, yet she is definitely NOT well rested. She's clearly tired and cranky. It's gotten very stressful.

Anyway, i know that one recommended remedy for the 2 to 1 transition growing period is to shorten the first nap so that they are tired enough for the second nap that they don't fight it. Here is my concern with this strategy. My daughter always takes good first naps, so i'm really afraid that if I chop the first nap AND things don't go well for the second nap, that we'll be in big trouble with overtiredness.

Can anyone address this concern of mine?

Our schedule looks something like this right now:

6:30 wake up
9:30 to 10 - first nap (she usually naps just an hour 15 or 20 minutes)
11:15 wake up
3:45 - second nap (It takes longer for her to tire after her first nap which is why we've stretched out the second nap to later in the afternoon)
wake up time from second nap varies. Sometimes it's 40 minutes after falling asleep; sometimes she'll do her full hour and 15 minutes.
8:00 asleep

I would really appreciate your advice!! I can't stand the crying every afternoon. It makes me feel horrible, so I must find a solution!!

THanks so much for reading!!!

katherine

P.S. I realize that my daughter's sleep needs per day are below average. I think this is just normal for her.

[~inbalance~]

Hi there.  I can totally sympathize with where you are going with this, as we were at a similar stage at that age too and I was really really stuck.  TBH, the only way things got better is when I realized that I was going the wrong route for the wrong reasons, and made some simple changes that were obvious to me the whole time.

First of all, I was very reluctant to cut the am nap too because it was DS's better nap.  But no matter what I did, the am nap was messing up the pm one and he would often refuse it. 

Second of all, my LO is lower than average on sleep needs too, but I try to look at his total sleep in a day and not so much the individual nap and A times.  So even though I know he can handle longer As under some circumstances, that doesn't always mean that he should.

I finally broke down and shortened the am nap the moved the pm nap, and voila!!  Things improved dramatically.

But I would suggest trying to cut that am nap down some and then see if you can get a pm nap.  Take it from me, I resisted doing it for months and it was a mess.  It really did work!

[greenteamomma]

I second that and my bubs is way way lower on sleep time for his age then yours.  I really didn't want to cut his am nap but had to dramatically to see an improvement over all.  I have struggled with this too as you can't correct anything for the second nap but you will have to.  Just clench your bum cheeks!
I would play around and see.  Maybe you have to push the am nap instead of cutting it. 

[saltyqueen]

THank you so much for your replies!! I feel heartened by your experiences. Can you give me an exact prescription? If she generally sleeps an hour 15 to 20 minutes for the first nap, what should I cut it to? an hour? Could 15 minutes make a significant difference with this problem?

Also, if I do cut the first nap, then when should our second nap begin? Right now I take her to her room about 4 hours 20 minutes after she wakes from her first nap. (the babywhisperer claims that 11 to 12 month olds can stay awake from 3.5 to 4.5 hours) I ended up extending the awake time after the first nap a while ago in hopes of readying her for the second nap and for a while it seemed to help, but we're back to square one now.

I so appreciate your feedback! This is getting unbearable!

Martina, you said things improved dramatically once you started shortening the first nap. How long did it take for you to see improvements?

Thank you so so much!!!

Katherine

[greenteamomma]

Yes Katherine, 15 minutes could make a significant difference.  My husband claims I'm crazy but 5 minutes less makes a HUGE difference here, believe it or not....
I have the oposite routine with a short am and a long pm nap so can't offer much advice.  But for A times, I can tell you taht the short am causes him to need a short A time, sometimes 3 hrs 15 minutes, between his first and second nap.  Remember this, I didn't know this at first, that the recommended A times are not for ALL the A times, just one maybe two. I suggest you post your EASY routine in the EASY forum instead.  I get more help on the 2-1 transition there.  The moderators will then probably lock this one so as not to confuse you and everyone.  HTH

[~inbalance~]

Katherine, I will be honest with you, I have never been good at figuring out this whole EASY/A times/nap lengths thing, hence why I really struggled to get it right!!  lol

I *think* a 45min am nap followed by say 3.5hr A time would work for you LO's age.  The tricky part is getting there, because often you want to move slowly towards new A and nap times rather than just jump into it.  What kind of baby is your LO?  If she is easy going and textbook, you could probably get away with just jumping into the new times and seeing how it goes.  My LO is like this, I don't have to do things too gradually.  However if she is more touchy and prone to OT you'd have to make the change slower, maybe dropping the am nap down to 1hr for a few days and playing with the following A times.  I never had the patience to do that stuff, so thank goodness my DS just rolls with the punches!

We didn't get the point until he was 13.5mo.  The mistake I made starting at 12mo was I was letting him nap 1hr-1hr15mins in the am and pushing that nap back while the pm nap got shorter.  Inevitably he started refusing the pm nap.  So I thought I could just push him to one nap and was so wrong, things were a disaster.  

I started doing the short am nap (20mins for us) about 2wks ago I think, and I saw instant results, as in things were better within a day or two.  Once I figured out how long a nap he needed in the am and what A time he needed in the pm, it was like a puzzle piece clicking into place.  So we are going to ride it out this way until he shows signs of finally dropping the am nap and going to one nap, but I won't be making the mistake of pushing him to it again!  lol

Keep her bedtime in mind too, right now her nights are a little short but if you play around with her naps be prepared to need an earlier bedtime.

Hope this helps a little, like I said I am not good at the specifics I'm afraid.    Better at sharing my experience.  But some of the other moms and mods are really good at getting it down more precisely, so if no one else jumps on this thread don't be afraid to start a new one (maybe in the EASY forum) to get some fresh opinions.  

[saltyqueen]

Gosh, I can't tell you how grateful I am for your input!! From what I've read, 1 hour for the am nap seems to be the common starting point. Maybe i would then shorten her A time post am nap to just 4 hours. How did you manage to figure out that 20 minutes was just right for you?

[saltyqueen]

And thank you, Greenteamomma!! I will move to EASY board if I don't get any other specific ideas here. Thank you!!

[~inbalance~]

It was mostly from reading other posts about LOs the same age going through the 2-1 that I figured 20mins was the way to go.  Plus, I started to notice that he would refuse the pm nap on anything longer than 20mins, even a 30min am nap he would refuse the pm nap!  So yes, 10/15mins can make a huge difference!

There is so much trial and error too, and of course a little bit on instict afterall you know what your LO can handle in terms of A times.  I found our current routine to be a lot of problem solving and trouble shooting on my part. 

See if you can post in the EASY forum and get LizJ to have a look at your thread, she's brilliant when it comes to figuring these things out!!  Plus she has just gone through the 2-1 with her LO so has loads of great transition advice. 

[saltyqueen]

I will move my post over to EASY now. Many thanks, Martina!!

[saltyqueen]

I am moving my post over from the nap board at the suggestion of the women there who say you ladies know best. I've already gotten some good advice regarding what to do about our current problems, namely shorten the first nap in hopes of having my dd go down more easily for the second nap. My question now is really specific. Can LizJ or anyone suggest how much you think I should shorten my daughter's first nap? And also how much I should subsequently shorten the A time that precedes the second nap? Any additional feedback that you think might help me during this time would be grately appreciated!!!! Thank you, in advance, so much!!

"Hi,

My daughter is almost 12 months old and her second nap has become a problem. She often cries really hard beforehand, sometimes for as long as 20 minutes. After she finally falls asleep, she's often awake and crying 40 minutes later, yet she is definitely NOT well rested. She's clearly tired and cranky. It's gotten very stressful.

Anyway, i know that one recommended remedy for the 2 to 1 transition growing period is to shorten the first nap so that they are tired enough for the second nap that they don't fight it. Here is my concern with this strategy. My daughter always takes good first naps, so i'm really afraid that if I chop the first nap AND things don't go well for the second nap, that we'll be in big trouble with overtiredness.

Can anyone address this concern of mine?

Our schedule looks something like this right now:

6:30 wake up
9:30 to 10 - first nap (she usually naps just an hour 15 or 20 minutes)
11:15 wake up
3:45 - second nap (It takes longer for her to tire after her first nap which is why we've stretched out the second nap to later in the afternoon)
wake up time from second nap varies. Sometimes it's 40 minutes after falling asleep; sometimes she'll do her full hour and 15 minutes.
8:00 asleep

I would really appreciate your advice!! I can't stand the crying every afternoon. It makes me feel horrible, so I must find a solution!!

THanks so much for reading!!!

katherine

P.S. I realize that my daughter's sleep needs per day are below average. I think this is just normal for her."     

[huntersmummyinoz]

there are 2 ways to go about the 2 to 1 switch

1) shorten am nap, offer pm nap slightly earlier. eventually am nap becomes a catnap and then disappears. this tends to suit LOs who like a short first A time and long last A time before bed.
2) move am nap slightly later, shorten pm nap. eventually pm nap becomes a catnap and disappears. this tends to suit LOs who like a long first A time, short last A time and also those who hate to be woken from a nap.

i did the second option with hunter because he was an absolute bear if woken from a nap, plus he used to do a 2hr am nap and only a 1.5hr pm nap when starting the transition. you could always try this first if you are worried about the possibility of 2 short naps in a day (another reason i chose it) HOWEVER i suspect that if you are already getting some nap refusal for that second nap then you may have to go with option 1.

have a think about what option you think will best suit her as you know her best:-*

useful reading on the 2 to 1 switch
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=95670.0
and a support thread
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=155604.0

[Peek-a-boo]

Hi Saltyqueen--I've merged your two topics as we try to keep just one active topic regarding a particular issue--it can get confusing to be getting advice from several different threads.  Your question is more of a "nap" question, but hunterzmommyinoz from the Easy board has also weighed in with great advice!