Night fussiness and EW.. please help

[AbNikki]

Hello ladies,

I've had the book and been reading the board for a while but this is my first post.
Ronen has been on EASY since he was about 4 weeks old, he is 9 months now.   We’ve been using the s/p and everything was peachy.  Then somewhere along the way he started falling asleep for the night with his last bottle (bad habit, I know), and that worked for a few months.  Mostly he slept through the night with a night feeding around 11:30-12 and waking up around 5-6 taking a bottle and then going down again for an hour.   Even falling asleep on his own in the crib occasionally w/o too much fussing. 
His bed time was 8pm but he somehow moved it to 9, now trying to get him down before 9 is a nightmare (I think teething was an issue, he cut a tooth on his 9 months b-day).  We start bed time routine around 7:30 with a bath and then a bottle.  He takes his bottle and then is fully awake after that, refuses to stay in his crib.  He stands up and starts calling for me, getting aggravated and more upset if I don’t pick him up.  If nothing works I pick him up and place him on our bed (he sleeps in the room with us until we move in August), he is showing all the tired signs…yawning, rubbing his eyes, he does this picking his ear thing, but he CAN NOT settle down.  He lays on our bed and keeps flopping around and sitting up and throwing himself down again and that goes on for 20 minutes.  If I give him the paci he takes it and throws it away.. (he is not attached to the paci) When I pick him up to settle him he pushes me and wants to crawl away and just roll around on the bed flopping around like a fish.  So that what our nights are like. 
In the daytime it’s as if he is a different baby, usually happy, smiley and happy.  His daytime naps are about 1-1.5 twice a day and another catnap usually around 4-5pm for 45 minutes.  My MIL who watches him during the week takes him on long walks in the afternoon and he sleeps outside in the stroller. From reading the board I can see that he is sleeping too much during the day.  I will shorten his morning nap to 45 minutes around 10:30-11 and then will let him nap again at 3:30 as his longer nap.  Maybe this way he will be ready for bed around 7:30-8.  Any advice will be appriciated.

His schedule is as follows:
5:30 - 6:30am wake up (sometimes go down for another hour after morning bottle)
7:30 - 9 Activity
9 - 9:30 Cereal and fruit
10 bottle
10:15 - 11:30 nap
12:00 -1:30 go outside for a walk and falls asleep on his way out.
2:15 - 2:30 lunch
4:00 Bottle   
4:00 - 6:00 Activity
Sometimes he takes another nap between 5-6
7:15 dinner
7:30 bath
8:15 bottle and try to put him to sleep
Finally goes down around 9

That’s all I can think of, let me know if you need any more info.  Would love to have him go down for the night and not fuss as much and maybe even sleep later. 
Thanks for your help.

[jess, lukeys_mom]

Hi there,

I think there might be two issues with the routine. One is that at his age he should just be on two naps, the catnap is most likely too much. He can probably stretch out his A times a little more so thjere are only 2 naps during the day. The catnap is likely making him less tired for bed. As a result of him pushing up his bedtime, his night sleep is also too short and he is probably getting overtired. I would try to keep his days 12 to 12.5 hours long. So if wake up time is 6.30, bedtime is 6.30/7. Also, the morning routine is often better for babies when you keep the wake up time consistent. I'd skip that morning back to sleep bottle, especially if falling asleep at the bottle has been the issue. That will get you closer to no more night feeds, if the bottle dependency is broken.

HTH x

[elmarie]

Hi and welcome to BW  

I think you are dealing with a really OT baby.  His bedtime is too late for his wake up time.  If he is waking between 5.30-6.30 he should be in bed (and asleep) no later than 7pm.  Remember at this age Otness causes fussiness and they struggle to fall asleep and sleep fitful.

I think one of the issues that needs to be addressed first is the props-falling asleep with his bottle and being picked up when he doesn't settle.  You may want to give pu/pd a try.  the secret is though to be consistent in what ever method of sleep training you choose  

[elmarie]

posted the same time as Jess but in essence we are saying the same thing 

[AbNikki]

Thank you ladies.  
I removed the last catnap yesterday and he went down (with a bottle) around 8pm.  Much better then a few nights before.  I will work on putting him down even earlier.
I get home from work at 6:30 and its hard not to spend time with him in the evening.  He gets sooo excited when i get home.  
I have been dreading trying pu/pd.  He is mostly a textbook baby with "slight" touch of "spirit"  he he
So when he is upset... he is UPSET!!! and the only way to calm him down is to pick him up.. and the second I lean over to put him back in the crib it all starts all over again.  I will pop over to the pu/pd board to get some pointers.  
Again thanks for the advice.

Also, the last 3 days Ronen has been waking up at 4 am super hungry, he eats and goes right back to sleep.  His last feeding is a DF at 11:30-12

[jess, lukeys_mom]

Hugs xxx I am also a working mom and I find it so hard when I can't see a lot of my boys in the evenings. (Is there anyway to be a bit flexible with your hours and start earlier/etc? Just wondering - I have done a lot of shifting with my job and it's helped quite a bit).

One thing about the times. I would really try to stick to early bedtimes for a while to get him caught up on being OT. However, once he is really well rested and the sleep issues are resolving, you can try shifting his routine up little by little so that the wake up time is a little later. You can try 5-15 minute increments for each of his A times and a later bedtime to shift it forward. Not every baby will respond to this but many do, especially if you are only trying to sift it to 7/7.30. x

I understand the worries of sleep training, but really agree that the falling asleep with the bottle is likely going to cause a lot of unwanted issues if it continues. Many people have had a lot of success with PU/PD but if you don't want to go that route you can always try Gradual Withdrawal, where you stay with him to go to sleep and gradually leave the room.

[AbNikki]

Hi Ladies.. here is a bit of an update:

We’ve been putting Roni to bed around 7pm and he has been getting up anywhere between 5-6. 
Also, I have been doing the modified pu\pd with him (not picking him up just laying him back down when he gets up and reassuring him)
So I am having 2 issues.  All of a sudden he started giving up the second nap, not matter what we do, we can’t put him down for his afternoon nap.   By 5PM he is sooo tired that he is passing out, I try and put him to bed but he starts screaming bloody murder EVERY nighttime bed time.  My MIL says that during the day he falls asleep while having his bottle and she doesn’t have that issue with him.
So every night the second I put him in the crib his starts screaming and its not a mantra cry.. Its “I cut off my finger” cry.  After about 30-45 minutes of him screaming his head off and me comforting him (I pick him up when he gets crazy until he calms down and then the second I lean into the crib to put him back he starts screaming again) he finally falls asleep.  If he wakes up during the night then he starts screaming bloody murder again.  Last night I couldn’t take it anymore and I laid him on our bed and he feel asleep there and then I put him in the crib.  He was screaming so bad. 
Am I doing something wrong? (besides putting him to bed with us last night) Is it just a phase that he will outgrow.  I feel like a terrible mother letting my baby scream his head off. 

Please ladies, I need some support!  And SLEEP!!!!!!!

P.S during the day I shortened his first nap to 45 minutes and the second one is 1:45.  I have to wake him up from the first nap and he is still visibly tired.  Should I let him sleep longer for the first nap?

[jess, lukeys_mom]

Hi again,

First off you are not a terrible mother! And it seems you are trying your best so don't be too upset with yourself!

9 months is a common age for two major phases: separation anxiety, and teething. I wonder if either of these things is complicating matters? Does he have teeth yet?

With the bedtime screaming I would definitely give some pain meds just to be on the safe side. Often even when lo's are o during the day, going to bed and having less distractions puts more concentration on the dull pain of teeth.

For the naps, what you wrote in the PS is probably what I would try too - shortening the am nap so he can still get a PM one in. Is that why you shorten that nap? Is his PM nap refusal after his short morning nap? Or does it happen when you let him sleep longer? If it's the latter then I'd probably keep the 45 min length.

What jumped out at me is your MIL saying he is falling asleep during bottle during the day. Is she following your routine while taking care of him? Since falling asleep on the bottle has been a prop for him already, I'm afraid it will only make things harder for him and you if it happens at all. If MIL does it one way and you another way, I think that inconsistency will be hurting your routine.

What do you think? x

[AbNikki]

He just falls asleep while drinking the bottle.  How do I stop that?

[jess, lukeys_mom]

The key would probably be in giving his bottles when he is not tired, like right after he wakes up. Maybe you can do the bottles then, and the solids later?

[AbNikki]

I will try that... Thank you.
So this morning he woke up at 6:30!!!!  Will see if it was a fluke tomorrow.  He is still crying but  a little less and he goes down easier. 
Will keep you posted.

[jess, lukeys_mom]

Great! I hope you got some good rest too. Keep us posted on how you get on and just post again if you run into any problems/issues, we're happy to help X