Losing milk at bedtime!

[marilyn73]

Hi,
I need some advice for what might be a problem starting.  Here's the history:  We successfully exclusively breastfed for 6 months (with the odd bottle of breast milk), then added solids at 6 months. DD is now 8 months old.  The last week or so, at the bedtime BF, on side #1, dd only goes for 3-4 minutes, then gets very upset and impatient - I switch her to side #2, where she peacefully feeds for 10min or so, gets drowsy - suck, suck, pause for 10 sec, suck suck pause - then I place her in her crib, eyes open, and she falls asleep immediately.
We stopped the DF 1 week ago, and now dd sleeps from 7pm to 7:30am.
Tonight, I had to go out, so I gave Dh a bottle with 4.5 oz to give dd.  She took it all, but was falling asleep at the end, so he put her in the crib where she fell asleep right away. 
The thing that alarmed me was that when I pumped just before going out, I only got 1 oz (and that was from both sides combined), and it was sloooow.  So I can see why she was getting frustrated when on side #1, and pulling away.  And last night's feed was quite fitful - put her on each side twice, and she just wasn't happy - started crying in her crib, and took awhile to settle. (no teething or anything going on, and she went on to have a perfect night's sleep)
She's always been a quick feeder - 10-15 min tops, and we're still BF every 4 hours during the day.
I wonder now if at the bedtime BF if she's been sucking more for comfort and not taking much milk?  How else would the supply drop?
When we were doing the DF, I was basically doing the bedtime feed on one side, and the DF on the other.  All other feeds during the day are 2 sided.
Solids are going well, and I give dd however much she wants really.  I recently started doing the solid supper sooner, to get dd hungrier for the bedtime BF.
Anyhow, here's our easy

7:30 awake and BF
8:30 solids
10:00-11:30 nap
11:45 BF
12:30 solids
2:00-3:30 nap
3:45 BF
5:00 solids
6:00 bathth and pj's
6:45 BF
7:00 asleep

This routine is really consistent, baby's weight gain is adequate (she's sticking around the 40th percentile, but was under 6lb at birth), she's STTN and dealt perfectly with the DF wean.  I've never had a BF issue.  In the am if I pump, I would get more than 2 oz per side, same if I got engorged.  So this 1/2 oz at bed time concerned me - especially since the DF was eliminated last week, and the 3 am feed 6 weeks ago.  Is this some signal to the body to decrease production?

I'm not sure if this is worry for nothing, but I want to nip it in the bud if a prob is starting.  BF's been so successful for us, I really don't want to mess anything up.
Should I try pumping in the evening to stimulate more production?  Ideas/advice appeciated.

thanks.
p.s. was back to prebaby weight, and just lost 2 lb more - not trying to be especially good, just living life normally - could that be an issue?  Haven't been this weight in 10yrs!

[~ Vik ~]

Hi Marilyn

Sounds to me like things are actually going quite well!  STTN consistently and an easy DF wean is great!

Pumping isn't really an accurate gauge of your milk production.  There are hormonal things that happen between mom and baby that just don't happen between mom and pump.  Some moms can't pump a drop, despite being obviously full and feeding their los no problem!  Others respond quite well to a pump and are able to pump full feeds quite quickly.  So even though you only pumped an oz, your lo certainly gets more than that when she breastfeeds.  The fact that she's STTN really indicates that she's getting enough - if she was hungry she'd wake up and let you know!

Having said that, supply is at its lowest in the evenings.  However, even though you have less milk in the evenings, what you do have is higher calorie, higher fat milk.  (The emptier your breasts are, the higher the fat content of the milk you do have.  If you want more detail, visit http://www.kellymom.com/bf/supply/milkproduction.html, lots of great information!)  Have you tried http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=88759.0 when she starts to get frustrated at the breast?  It may keep her interested for longer!

Is this some signal to the body to decrease production?

Yes, but not in a worrisome way.  Breastfeeding is all supply and demand - when your dd feeds, that milk is replaced.  Since you're no longer doing night feeds, your body is no longer producing the milk for those feeds.  It's not a bad thing, just our bodies being very efficient!

If you do want to increase production in the evenings you certainly can pump - this will signal your body to produce more milk at this time.  Try pumping an hour after her bedtime feed for a week or so, and see if that makes a difference for you!  IMHO though, I don't think you have low milk supply at this point, I think your body is likely just adjusting to the new feeding routine   If you're worried though, have a look here:  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=65905.0  Some information that may reassure you, and some other ideas to increase supply.

HTH!
Vikki

[marilyn73]

Thanks for the reassurance - I'll check those links you sent.  My only worry is that there was a "change".  My lo who peacefully drifted off while feeding, and then went straight to sleep, has had 2 nights of tugging at the breast, while obviously frustrated, and then cried when in crib.  But, is still sleeping well, and being the perfect angel she usually is.
I guess if she demands more, I'll make more right? So the frustrated behavior should result in more milk, if necessary?  and if not, not!
Will post if any more probs.
thanks.

[~ Vik ~]

Definitely have a look at the links when you have time, breast compression especially might be a big help for you.  Your DD may simply be getting frustrated at the slow flow, causing the tugging and bobbing on and off, and compressions can help greatly.  You can also switch breasts:  Offer the first until she loses interest, then the second, then back to the first, and back to the second again.  This will also signal your body to produce more.  And if you choose to pump after feeds, you can use any expressed milk to top her off if she's still acting hungry.  What do you think?

Also wondering if she could be teething?  Might be another cause for the behaviour you describe...

[First Time Mom]

I just wanted to add that maybe your dd is not that hungry at that time? Not sure how much she is eating for solids at dinner time but the bf you are giving her is just 1.45 hours after the start of her dinner, is there a chance she is not that hungry for a bf at that time? As Vikki said, if you start pumping an hour after that feed you will increase your supply, but I would wonder if she will take the extra milk you make? When my dd was young I did limit her solids that she ate until 12 months, I always did the bf right before her solids so that she would fill on milk first than any "extra" she needed would be the solids, that way her primary nutrition and calories (until 12 months) came from the breast milk and she did take full feeds. Just a thought.

[marilyn73]

Good points.  I'm sure she's not super hungry at bedtime as she BF after her nap, has solids, and then BF's again.  Since she only BF's 4 x day now, I'm concerned that the last one is not a full one - but she seems to be doing fine - not dehydrated, or constipated, gaining weight well, and STTN - I just started this thread because she seemed frustrated at the bedtime feed.
No teething, no sickness....
Limiting her solids at suppertime is a thought - just something I hadn't considered - is this a typical thing to do??  So far I've always let her govern what/how long she BF's, and now have just done the same with the solids...no previous experience here!
Side note - tonight after BF side #1, side #2, side #1, dd finally settled for a peaceful but small feed, and then switched to her thumb so I put her down and she fell asleep right away.  Tried the breast compressions and it really made her mad - she just kept pushing my hands away and didn't like the distraction.  And it was because milk was flowing to fast - I couldn't really even get in there!

[~ Vik ~]

Glad that she settled better for you!   (sorry though that she hated the compressions so much, though I had to smile at the visual of her pushing your hands away )

[marilyn73]

Don't know what's changed, but my peacefully feeding angel at bedtime is back.  No more tugging, no more impatience, no more hollering - nice latch on both sides, and drifting off by the end - just like before.  I don't know if my milk supply went down, and then returned? or if it was a letdown thing (definitely don't feel it like I used to), but the problem's resolved itself (through no special effort of my own!).
Only thing that's different is that lo is feeding herself more, and not taking as much by spoon as before, so overall her food volume has decreased - maybe she's just hungrier.

[~ Vik ~]

Could have been a growth spurt maybe?  In any case, yay! for a return to peaceful feeds

[marilyn73]

Hi again,
I thought I'd jump back on this thread, since today's quesiton/situation is related.
Re: decreasing bedtime BF.
Since the last bunch of posts, the bedtime feed went from a decent amount, and peacefully drifting off by the end, to pushing away, fussing, tugging, and overall preferring to thumbsuck/settle in to the sleep sack and get ready for sleep.

Today for the first time instead of battling the "mommy, I'm going to sleep now", I let dd suck her thumb for a few seconds, after which she'd latch back on, and then off after a minute, then back to the thumb, laugh a little, back to the boob.... overall, fooling around, getting a little milk, you get the picture. (Pleasant mood though)

I put her down in her crib, wide awake, but she settled almost immediately, and I didn't hear another peep.
If she manages to sleep to a decent hour, then can I assume she's getting enough bedtime milk?

I'm getting the feeling these days, that she wouldn't mind just dropping it altogether.  I put dd in her sleepsack (which has become her lovey), and she clings to it with one hand, sucks the other thumb, and is ready for her crib.  This is how we do her naps too.  And she always falls asleep super fast.

Last night, I thought I'd do the bedtime feed before the sleepsack was put on, but it was even more of a battle - dd kept picking at her sleeper the way she does her sleep sack, but it wasn't what she wanted (no comfort from lovey!), more fussing, crying... she was relieved when I finally put her in it and went straight to bed.

I'm confident that the bedtime (7pm) is right for dd, because she STTN and doesn't wake until 7-7:30am.  And she has good naps.

I tried making the solids at supper earlier, but it had no effect.  I feel like once dd is out of the bath, we are on a predictable path of the steps towards bedtime, that cannot be altered - or else she protests.
I've thought of giving her less solids, but she's already taking a lot less as she's been refusing the spoon in preference to feeding herself, and I didn't want to risk her still not wanting the bedtime feed, and getting really hungry in the night.

If dd gets a bottle of EBM at bedtime, she only takes 2.5-3 oz (before solids, it was 4-5 oz).

Now the afternoon nap has been getting later, as A time has increased, so the after nap breastfeed has been pushed to 4pm.  Not much time for 5pm solids, and 6:45pm BF.  I think she's just not interested in soooo much food.

Just need reassurance that 3 decent milk feeds, and one mediocre one is enough for a 9 month old.  Anyone?

[marilyn73]

Update
I've been visiting my parents for 5 weeks while our house is being renovated.  The whole past month, bedtime has settled into a very predictable routine in terms of feeding.  We do solids at 5, bath at 6, BF at 6:45 - which is basically 5-8 minutes of feeding, fussing, and thumbsucking (I don't think her intake is more than 2 oz). Then, when dd refuses to feed at all (instead of bobbing off/on) I put her in her crib and she goes straight to sleep.  She then STTN until 7ish.
But, on 3 occasions when I've had my mom give dd a bottle of EBM, she's happily taken 4 oz, no complaints, straight to sleep in crib, and then STTN until 7:45am!!
I'm confident I have enough milk, and that it's not a flow issue - for some reason she just doesn't want it (maybe to much effort compared to bottle?).  I've tried earlier, later, less solids at supper, earlier solids...
Now, I no we're super lucky to have a baby STTN until 7, but 7:45 would be heavenly - I don't want to give up the bedtime breastfeed in lieu of a bottle (although DH thinks this would be fine). 

Our other BF in the day (7:00am, 11:30am, 3:30pm) are getting freakishly quick - was 10 min total for many months, now down to 6 min (3min per side), but she seems satisfied...there's always more milk, she just arches her back and crawls off my lap.

Any thoughts?

p.s. we're using born-free bottles with the smallest nipple size (never saw a need to switch to the next size up)