organic vs. regular food/milk

[Mashi]

Jess - on the tomatoes they actually said that this year is the first year tomatoes have not been on the top ten list!  So you're not as old as you think  

As for methods, apply the same principle of the chicken to vegetables: I have 100 acres of farmland to plant strawberries. If I spray them with pesticides then I know that 99% of the bugs will be killed off and not attack my plants which leaves me 99 acres of strawberries to harvest and sell. Because I sprayed them with xyz chemicals then they grow a wee bit bigger, get a bit redder, and live a few days longer, giving me the biggest, reddest strawberries at the market to sell and I can have them on display for five days of a week. Out of my 100 acres, I sold 98 acres' worth of berries. If I am charging the equivalent of say $100/acre's worth then I've got $9800 of strawberry sales.

My neighbour does organic strawberry farming and also has 100 acres.  He does not spray pesticides and so bugs infest pieces of his crop and say he loses 25% of his strawberries to pests - and is down to 75 acres to harvest.  His berries don't quite look as good as mine and are not as enticing to consumers, they are still a bit green, pretty tiny, and he's only got 2 days to get them into the market and put them on display before they start shrivelling up and wilting.  Out of his hundred acres, he sells about 50-60 acres worth.  If he is charging $100/acre then he's only got $6000 worth of strawberry sales this season.  If he wants to earn as good of a living as I do then he's got to up his price to $150/acre, and pass that onto the consumer.  

Some people will chose smaller, greener berries that are a bit shriveled up and cost more because they want organic. Others want the cheap, red, juicy berries...I suppose it is every person's choice, but that is the economics behind it.

[deb]

There are also different levels of organic certification. Different countries have different standards, and in the US I believe the highest certification an organic farmer can aspire to is Oregon Tilth. Because of the prevalence of GMO crops in the States, some other countries won't buy organic from the States since organic means I think only like 97% guaranteed GMO-free, which isn't OK for anyone looking for 100% GMO-free.

With chickens and eggs, there's "organic," there's "natural," there's "cage-free", and there's "free-range," and they all mean different things. I don't remember the particulars, but it's something like "cage-free" means they don't have a tiny little cage, but instead a certain number of hens can be in a smaller enclosure and at least walk around but not far, and "free-range" means they have access to a door (or is it to a rooster? I forget) but if it's a tiny little door that only a couple of them ever bother going thru, the whole setup can still be listed as "free-range," something like that. And I may have the names mixed up, but the point is that just because it says "cage-free" doesn't mean that they aren't confined or that they're happily frolicking in the sunshine and having fun with roosters before laying those eggs. The names conjure up pictures that *some* farmers are doing their best to accomplish at the very bare minimum.

My very favorite, on the rare occasions I can get it, is free-range grass-fed beef and lamb and raw milk. Cows in conventional US feedlots are fed corn, even though their stomachs are designed to digest green grass, and the corn leads to all sorts of digestive issues; imagine with worst case of MSPI ever and that's what they go thru eating corn, which they were never meant to eat. That's why they also end up getting so much in the way of medication: to keep them alive till slaughter. The feedlot animal industry makes up a HUGE percentage of the antibiotic industry in the States. 'Nuff said. But grass-fed milk is really quite nice, a whole different flavor and texture, and it can vary through the seasons as the cows are also eating other meadow forage or, in the winters, hay. Some discerning chefs in places where free-range is more the norm and the tradition actually have recipes that vary from season to season as the eggs and milk vary in flavor and composition.

In the States there is a battle to stop Monsanto from selling GMO alfalfa; alfalfa growers and animal farmers who want their products to be organic are worried about the wind blowing the pollen from GMO farms to theirs and basically polluting their alfalfa, which would make it harder for alfalfa farmers to certify organic and harder for organic dairy farmers to find non-GMO alfalfa for their own organic herds. The head of our FDA (Food and Drug Administration) actually used to work for Monsanto, as have a LOT of the FDA's staff.

Sorry, got on my soapbox again.... stepping off now....

[jess, lukeys_mom]

Jess - on the tomatoes they actually said that this year is the first year tomatoes have not been on the top ten list!  So you're not as old as you think 

Interesting - I wonder why that is!

Mash your comment about:

Some people will chose smaller, greener berries that are a bit shriveled up and cost more because they want organic. Others want the cheap, red, juicy berries...

We struggle with this too. It's the pretty packaging! Sometimes when you just see a big, colorful, ripe-looking apple - you just want to bite into it! Those are the times I do not buy organic. Luckily, you don't see milk ;-)

[Mashi]

Mash your comment about:

Some people will chose smaller, greener berries that are a bit shriveled up and cost more because they want organic. Others want the cheap, red, juicy berries...

We struggle with this too. It's the pretty packaging! Sometimes when you just see a big, colorful, ripe-looking apple - you just want to bite into it! Those are the times I do not buy organic. Luckily, you don't see milk ;-)

I know - and the organic (called "bio" here and pronounced bee-oh) produce here is separated from the other, and so when I wander over to the bio section I usually sort of go "hmmmmmmmmm.....nothing really inspires me today" and then over to the regular veg and you can say "ohh, lovely purple shiny eggplant, looks yummy!"  Kwim?  It's hard find that balance!

[Nauvoo]

So I read that pesticides are broken down in the cooking process.  Does anyone know if this is true? 
I've been quite inspired by this thread, tho I still can't afford the organic milk and eggs let alone some other essentials , I know of a family that sells a load of veggies and fruits down the road from me that are all organic and are very equal in price compared to the supermarket.  I've bought from them before and been impressed but I imagine I'll be buying much more from them now.  thanks all

[deb]

I suppose there are some broken down in cooking, but I can't imagine it would be the majority of them. And here we like to eat lots of produce raw: lettuce, green beans, peas, carrots, and berries. Saves me the cooking. LOL I love that my girls can basically graze from our garden now and for the next 3-4 months or so.

[deb]

Oooh, I was hoping this thread would be active so I could find it again. A FB friend linked to this article and right away I thought of this thread!
http://planetgreen.discovery.com/food-health/foods-unsafe-doctors-eat.html: 7 Foods So Unsafe Even Farmers Won't Eat Them.

As for being addicted to dairy, a lot of nutritionists have noted that people have addictions to foods they most shouldn't have. My MIL has been diabetic for years, was pre-diabetic for years before that, has lost about 90% of her vision due to it, and CAN NOT STOP eating sweets. Can't do it. And her giving them my kids and telling them not to tell Mommy is another story, but she really is THAT addicted to them. They're killing her, literally; DH says that her anger and bitterness is the only thing keeping her alive, because it sure as heck isn't her diet. :-'( She grew up in the Depression in a time and a culture where people expressed love thru food, and then became a parent when there was a lot of misinformation going around about what constituted "healthy" food. Ugh.

[We Three]

Yikes Deb...I'm scared to click that link!   

Nwmm...my homeopath is hilarious when he talks about how humans are the ONLY beings who go back to milk after weaning, that no other creature on earth does this.   He once was acting like a pig on a farm, and said "Ok..I'm grown now, and I guess I'm too big to nurse from my Mom.  But hey! I wonder if Mrs. GOAT has any milk for me? I'll just take HER milk!!! Why not? I LIKE milk! And why would it be considered odd that me, a pig, would drink milk from a GOAT?  SOME OTHER SPECIES???"   He can be so funny.   And heaven forbid you get him started on how we drink fluids with our meals...(he feels that the water/fluids dilute digestive juices and really interfere with digestion)...he's like "Have you ever seen on Tv when a bunch of tigers all are eating this gazelle they just killed?  Don't they just lie there and eat? Or do they stop every now and again and say "I'll be right back! I'm just gonna run over to this pond for a few sips of water to wash down my gazelle."   

Oh and as for what he eats...he drinks alot of green stuff...totally gross.  And he eats NO sugar that doesn't naturally occur in food. NO bread, NO pasta, NOTHING white.  Lean meats, fish, vegetables, nuts and fruit. To put it his way "What God intended us to eat." That's it.  He has not been sick one day in his life since he was 20 and started living this way. He's 45.  Looks 30.  But doesn't have a whole lot of fun and could use a beer and some pizza.   

[Mashi]

Oh and as for what he eats...he drinks alot of green stuff...totally gross.  And he eats NO sugar that doesn't naturally occur in food. NO bread, NO pasta, NOTHING white.  Lean meats, fish, vegetables, nuts and fruit. To put it his way "What God intended us to eat." That's it.  He has not been sick one day in his life since he was 20 and started living this way. He's 45.  Looks 30.  But doesn't have a whole lot of fun and could use a beer and some pizza.    Lips sealed

I like how you summed that up at the end Anne. I do know what is healthy and what is the best choice and so on but I only believe in a certain amount of sacrifice and think that life is not just about living perfectly but about balancing that out with enjoyment. One of my best friends from university who is now a doctor and works in community health around the world has a quote that has always stuck with me: "Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, champagne in one hand - strawberries in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming, WOO HOO - what a ride"

e's like "Have you ever seen on Tv when a bunch of tigers all are eating this gazelle they just killed?  Don't they just lie there and eat? Or do they stop every now and again and say "I'll be right back! I'm just gonna run over to this pond for a few sips of water to wash down my gazelle."    Wink

This sorta makes me wonder, though, when is the last time that I saw a human being sprint across an open field and grab a gazelle with their bare hands and start ripping it apart with their teeth, eating every bit of that raw flesh, those organs and intestines, and slurping down the blood... ykwim?

[deb]

Amelia, your homeopath needs to do some dietary anthropology. If there weren't cultures all over the world where milk was a part of the daily way of life and had been for centuries, we wouldn't still be using the stuff. It's just that now we kind of abuse it by the way we raise the milk producers (goats' milk and sheeps' milk really isn't that bad, and some cultures use mare's milk regularly too, so I can't limit it to cows LOL) and how we process the milk. There's a big difference between raising a handful of cows or goats and using the milk fresh from the animal and buying a plastic jug of something relatively sterile that's thousands of miles and processes removed from its source. And more and more of our whole food chain is the same way.

I also know that we were a LOT healthier when we were on the Body Ecology Diet (also no processed grains, in fact only 4 grains allowed and wheat wasn't one of them, let alone white flour products). A kid in preschool in the Winter and NOBODY got sick in the whole family? AND I lost 30 pounds of stubborn post-baby weight? Plus I learned some ways to prepare food that really DO make it more interesting and tasty, PLUS we saved gobs of money buying and cooking more from scratch.

I totally agree with Mashi that there really ought to be some sort of balance though. I guess for me, seeing what effects some foods have on my body and my health and my kids and their demeanor, though, my balance is a lot different from other people's. LOL

[nwmm]

Definately chuckled, Amelia1227.

A lot of that is what I have heard from mine, but I like the pictures you guys paint. 

[jess, lukeys_mom]

But doesn't have a whole lot of fun and could use a beer and some pizza.   

LOL!

If you will all indulge me in a little hypocrisy...I totally agree with the naturopath about not drinking milk. Even though it's been done for ages, etc - I still think it's not really natural. It is likely (in my mind, at least) the result of a shift in not breast feeding until 3 or 4 years as once was commonly done, and then a replacement offered.  But nutritionally the vitamins, carbs, and fatty acid chains that milk offers can definitely come from other sources, and some which are probably even healthier.

The hypocrisy is that I still give cow's milk to my kids! I have an even stronger belief that dietary choices only make sense when you can support them, and we are doing what we can to make the boys' diets as absolutely healthy and diverse as possible. But milk is just part of the way we've been doing things, and although we replace with soy milk from time to time, we are used to the taste and still haven't gotten to a stage where we are removing it from our diets.

Though I will add to the arguments towards eating healthy and living a little...I agree with a great balance. But thoroughly agree with Deb, in that the times when I have adhered to a more stringent diet with a great deal of health foods - I just feel SO MUCH better physically, mentally, emotionally... Unfortunately I have noticed that with milk and diary products too - without them I have less allergies and feel lighter overall. So while I'll rarely pass up the chance to share a good bottle of wine and a pizza with friends, too much of this just prevents me from feeling really healthy kwim?  I think I am venturing a little OT here though 

[deb]

Here's one I found amusing: a friend of mine has recently given birth to her second LO; her first had been weaned by decided when he saw the newborn nursing that he'd like some of that Momma Love too, so now my friend is producing copious amounts of milk. She and her family also have a small goat farm; they use the milk to make cheese, mostly, drink some themselves too, I think.

Anyway, apparently both her LO and her DH thought it would be interesting to use HER milk to make cheese. (Some chef in New York actually did that with his wife's breast milk.) She is pretty much grossed out by this idea. And naturally I thought of Anne and her naturopath's comments right away: so.... you want to drink milk from a GOAT and turn it into cheese and eat it as a human, but you are grossed out by the idea of using HUMAN milk to feed humans in any form other than straight from the breast. It just struck me as funny. I can totally understand it, but it struck me as funny.

That said, though, I can see the logic from a long-ago-farming point of view: if it sustains animals, it might be good for us too. This could well be how lots of other foods came into the human diet: we see animals eating this or that plant or other animal and humans try it too and it doesn't kill them. (Or it does and they don't eat that particular one any more ) Animals eat berries, people eat berries. Animals eat this or that green plant, humans do too. Animals eat other animals, people do too. So one day the regular food is scarce, farmer sees a baby animal nursing and thinks, Hey, it sustains the animals, why not use it to feed us too? Ta-dah, dairy farming is born.

I go back and forth on the "milk is baby food" issue. Yes, basically, it IS baby food, but at the same time, it's also a fantastic vehicle for probiotics (yogurt and kefir), it's widely used in cooking and baking, and some of the reading I've done suggests that ethnic groups who've used lots of milk as a regular part of their diets can generally handle it better than those who haven't, assuming they don't go off it and then try to come back, in which case they often can't digest it any more. I also think that in mainstream American culture we drink far far more of it straight up than more traditional dairy cultures used to, not culturing it or turning it into cheeses, just drinking it straight up, plus with all the processing it's really not the same drink it used to be. But that's venturing more into my opinion than anything that's validated fact.