Trying EASA with my 4.5 month old

[aarden]

so is it ok to try EASASE as my 4.5 month old has not slept for more than 30 mins at naps since 9 weeks and that was  only cos she went through a few weeks with a 10pm bed time and up at 7am. It took me ages to realise at 4 months she needed feeding every 4hrs and not 3. I was feeding her at 10am when she was tired again after waking up at 9ish after 30 min nap. I did try to PUPD yesterday and got 1hr 20 but that was after about 2hrs of crying that day, which seems rather pointless, as I'm sure it was only cos she was exhausted. I have tried ssh pat in the cot, but I think she is a little old for it and gets stimulated. It nearly worked today, but then the postman came and dropped letters through (it was not loud but she is really alerted by everything!!).

After three days of trying PU/PD and ssh pat I'm thinking of giving up as it seems to create more crying that its worth. If she just has three 30 min naps we get crying just at 6pm and tired signs an hour after she wakes after each nap. I'm going to try another nap after 1 hr of waking. Oh and her tired signs always clash with her feed times and she has a major association with feeding from me straight before bed, but that's another storey!

[mamatolevi]

Hi! Welcome to BW.
EASA is quite common for LO's at this age. As you said, she is transitioning to 4hrly feeds instead of 3, and her A time plus S time won't always match up to 4 hours. So, you can do some A upon waking, then feed, then some more A before the next feed.
Would you like to post your routine in EAS format so we can have a closer look? You mentioned that your LO is very alert and wakes to various sounds...do you use white noise in her room? It has been a lifesaver for us. We use a fan or a humidifier, depending on his needs. Is her room very dark? This can be crucial, too, for LO's who are more interested in looking around than sleeping!

[aarden]

cheers. this is the newish routine although first nap is still needed at 1.15hr of awake time
2 feeds in night (although second feed is normally around 4.00- 4.30 so not sure if habitual, I take her off me if I can). Dont do dream feed as tried it but means I wake up even more.
Wake 6:30-6:45 (getting earlier and if I feed her a little and put her down she would go back to sleep as I used to do this for a few weeks)
E 6:45-7:00 (very short distracted feed, sometimes only 3 mins)
A lying on back watching me in kitchen
S 8:15 ish for 30 mins
A getting dressed, sometimes playmat or bumbo
9.30-10:00 tired signs but used to feed 3 hourly so not attempted get back to sleep to see when hungry
E 10:45-11:00 then baby rice afterwards (advice from HV as weight gain not great)
A
S 12ish for 30 mins
A
E 3:00pm
A out in the pram in the hope of getting a nap
S 4:30ish for 30 mins in pram. used to nap at 5:00 which helped enormously with crying after bath
A
6:00 getting grumpy, not really sure if tired or hungry but really think tired.
6:30 bath
E 6:45
S 7:00-7:15 tried Gina ford for a bit so its AES as don't dare change it!

Room is dark as we bought black outs but not pitch black and when sunny she can see round the room. tried white noise but she still woke up after 30 mins, not sure if i should try different noises, this was recording of vacuum cleaner. the time she slept for 1 hr 20, it was the usual light conditions, she just didn't wake and was in deeper sleep (I was stuck in nursery out of fear!) and i assume must have been absolutely exhausted from the crying to get her to go back to sleep. She doesn't seem tired after the morning nap when she wakes, it's later on then she is tired for second nap so can be harder to get to sleep but i think now she is on (wholegrain)baby rice and tummy is fuller this is why she goes down better.

I have also cut right down on stimulation last week and just leave on back more, but no difference. Can you explain more about the white noise and why you use different sounds- is one to calm her when she is loud crying and the other is put on when she goes down ok to extend naps?

[MamaCat]

i did EASA with jj for a while on and off and sometimes it works but i have to say i felt that he just got confused as he expects to feed every time he wakes up which is hard if it becomes 2 hourly! so we have just started leaving him in his cot when he wakes as long as we can (ie as long as he happy and calm) in the hopes of letting his body clock know that he should be asleep still and to hold off on the E... a sleep consultant suggested it and it does work sometimes and then of course you have days when nothing works good luck xxx

[aarden]

I DON'T BELIEVE IT! she just slept for about an hour and half (unless she was pretending!). This has not happened for months, if ever at this time if I can recall. She woke up at 6:35 crying and wouldn't calm down so I fed her at 6:40. She gave a tired sign at 7:45 and I put her down. Think she may have slept from 8ish to 9:40, not sure of times as tried to stop being manic monitor listener. I'm guessing she does only need 11hrs at night now rather than 12, and then she has the longer first nap, which should hopefully mean she is then less exhausted by the evening, as is not progressively tired through the day. Just means I have to get up earlier- oh well, am awake from 4.30 am anyway! If it doesn't happen again I will try the staying in the cot thing, which is what i've been doing really with the sshh pat to try to extend naps the last few days. They are a mystery.
thanks

[MamaCat]

congrats! they often extend their first nap of the day first so i hope it continues for you! xxx

[aarden]

Back to short naps again most of the time. I was getting so tired of trying to extend naps I have had to give up for my sanity. Sometimes she sleeps for longer, most of the time, not. I cannot fathom why, but now I know she can do it sometimes, I don't worry and just try to put her down for a second nap in between feeds (the EASASE) to get 1-1.5 hrs. I was hoping more day sleep would make her sleepier for night but whether she naps shorter or longer, it doesn't seem to make a difference to night wakings (wakes up 2-4 times, only hungry once I think). Maybe I should now tackle night wakings directly?

[mamatolevi]

What does her routine look like now? Having to extend naps does eventually end, I promise! Although, somedays it feels like it will go on forever

[aarden]

waking can be between 6:00 which I think is a NW and 7:30
If wake at 6:45. Now on solids x3 a day 2-3 teaspoons, and encourage drinking formula from a cup (takes nothing to 50ml)
E 7:00 - (doesn't seem to want to take much from second side even if only fed once at night so thinking doesn;t need so much at night)
solids 8:15  (very fussy at breakfast today think was too tired)
wind down= in nursery for nappy change, 5 mins cuddle
S 8:30-9:00
A something inside house
S sometimes another sleep 10:00-10:30 or 10:30-11:00
E 11:00
solids 12:00
S if only one short nap, tired at solids and bed straight after, if two naps sleep 12:45 for 30 mins
A
S an hour after waking from first nap
E 2:45/3:15
A out in pram
S nap in pram 4:30-5:00
solids 5:00pm often fussy and crying at this time, especially if taking solids happens straight after nap but seems to lurch out and wants to take it. Sometimes I end up BF because she seems upset and wonder whether she is hungry also but I know she is tired.
5:45-6:00 rubs eyes lots. This is the only time she really gives a tired sign that is more relaxed, in the day she just fusses when she's tired.
6:15 bath
E 6:30
cuddle, bed at 7:00

This am she guzzled 60ml of formula while fussing at breakfast. I pushed her awake time a bit today. Now she has been sleeping for an hour this morning. I really think now that she has a big eat sleep association and when she takes formula at breakfast she sleeps well, this has happened before. I do try and encourage her to take more on waking, and even try half an hour after waking but it seems she doesn't want to take more until she is tired. Does this matter? I don't want her to have a BF association with sleeping as really want to give up and want someone else to look after her eventually. It seems with the routine though with solids there is so much eating of both milk and a little solids, that sleep has to come not long after one of them! It is the NW that bothers me more though.

Do you think that by her taking formula not long before day time naps that it reinforces the feeding to get to sleep at night also? I have had some success the last couple of nights with a big cuddle (in or over cot) until she is calm at the habit 4:00-4:30 wake up and don't want to ruin that.

Now she sounds like she is waking after an hour and may not be able to get another nap in before next milk feed, so she will be very tired straight after next solids and formula.

I can't extend her A time because she really fusses after 1.5 hrs

I should also mention that we don't E every 4hrs every day as she really seems to want to E after 3 sometimes, I know at those times she is tired and sometimes its constipation but not sure she is hungry, she calms after a short feed. 4hr routine only really seems to work if she takes a bit of milk with solids. I would rather her have more milk than solids as she is only 5.5 months.

Sorry for long post, question really now I think is, if its drinking milk from cup before naps that gets her down for longer then should I just continue to encourage her to take milk with solids. I would rather her do this than have an hour of screaming which is what PU/PD does. what will happen in the long run? With the anxiety and churning things over in my head my sleep has really suffered, only slept from 9:30pm-12:30am the other night and could not get back to sleep. Feel ill.

I think I need to do a NW post too
Thanks for your thoughts

[mamatolevi]

I don't think you'll have any feed to sleep issues unless she's actually falling asleep at the breast/bottle. I really think that she needs longer A times in order to increase her nap lengths.

I can't extend her A time because she really fusses after 1.5 hrs

Sometimes, they show tired signs because it's what they're used to. My DS had 2hr A time for quite awhile. Even though he's doing 3.25hrs now (or more), he still shows tired signs at 2hrs. Here are a few links to check out:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164029.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.msg476652#msg476652
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=89906.0

[aarden]

Ok thanks, that's really helpful, I will try. I did wonder whether the getting fussy was a habit thing. She napped 1hr 20m this morning after A time of 1hr 40 but I think she was tired as soon as she woke up at 7 as she was rubbing her eyes and squealing. She was up for 2hrs last night from 2am-4. She has just gone down again after A time of 2hr 15m, but have never seen her do 2x naps of more than 30-40mins.