Big baby - should I feed less often?

[Oslo Mummy]

Hi there,

My 8 week old baby feeds every 3 hours (day and night).  We have been doing the cluster and dream feed.  There are quite a few issues regarding sleeping, but I think I'm going to start with the eating problem first!

So here goes - he was a big baby at birth (4.3kg or around 9.61b)  At his 6 week weight check he was already over 6kg (I'm guessing around 6.5kg now).

As I'm BF, I've never known how much he takes at each feed - but he eats very quickly (with my first baby I forced the 30 minute feeding - which led to a lot of reflux - I've been more relaxed this time and let him eat what he needs at each feed).  Last night, I expressed milk and my husband gave him the dream feed (at 10.30).  He only took 100ml (3.5oz) which doesn't seem like a lot for a big baby to have at the dream feed.  I'm sure my first baby was having around 150 - 180 at this point.

I'm wondering if this is why he is still waking up for so many feeds during the night (usually at 2, 5 and then 7/8).

1) My question is - how do I make sure he takes enough at each day feed (without overfeeding him - both of my boys spit up if they eat too much).  He isn't falling asleep on the breast and fusses if I try to 'force feed' him.
2) When should I do the last feed at night?  I've been clustering - maybe time to stop to make sure he takes a full feed at the dream feed?
3) Should I feed less often as he is so big to make sure he takes a bigger feed?  He never seems really frantically hungry when I feed him.  Sometimes I feed him 2.5 - 3 hours. I'm wondering if I should start stretching it out?

Does this make any sense?  Bbasically - I'm not really having a 'feeding problemn' but think maybe the milk timings will help with the sleep?

Thanks so much

[Tay]

Hiya,
 At 8 weeks it's pretty normal for babies to still be waking up for night feeds, and it doesn't mean that your LO is not being fed properly during the day, neither has it to do with your baby's size (my DD was tiny and didn't start sleeping longer stretches until she was 13 weeks, DS was massive and slept for 5 hours from very early on, but didn't go over 5hrs stretches until... 6 months I think). BM is easily digested so babies tummies empty quicker, which means tehy get hungry again.
Have you read http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=98183.0? Good to give you an idea.

Another thing that comes to me reading your post is: is there any chance your LO is comfort feeding at night? Is it alway 3hr gaps between feeds or does it vary at all?
Does your LO sleep independently or do you feed to sleep?

1) My question is - how do I make sure he takes enough at each day feed (without overfeeding him - both of my boys spit up if they eat too much).  He isn't falling asleep on the breast and fusses if I try to 'force feed' him.

What I always done with mine was: feed one side until the baby stopped gulping, burp, offer same side again. I don't remember exactly when but at one stage I started to offer the other side.
Another important thing is to make sure there are no distractions. But tbh at this age it shouldn't be too much of an issue just yet.

2) When should I do the last feed at night?  I've been clustering - maybe time to stop to make sure he takes a full feed at the dream feed?

Most mums would choose only the CF or the DF, but some mums do both. Why don;t you try for a few days to see if it makes any difference.
Also, could you post your routine as well, maybe something else will come up whenever I (or other girls) have a chance to see how your day goes.

3) Should I feed less often as he is so big to make sure he takes a bigger feed?  He never seems really frantically hungry when I feed him.  Sometimes I feed him 2.5 - 3 hours. I'm wondering if I should start stretching it out?

I wouldn't suggest stretching it out to over 3hrs, but if you're feeding him sometimes after only 2.5hrs that could be affecting his 'hunger'. I would personally try to stick to 3hrs and see how it goes.
Or you can also just watch your baby for a few days and follow hunger cues. Make a diary of the feeds and see if any patterns emerge.

Anyway, lots of stuff... Let me know what you think.
xxx

[Oslo Mummy]

Hi there

Just a quick response while I get a minute (!) - thanks so much.  This does help.  Good reassurance.  I'll watch his routine over the next couple of days and get back to you on my routine and your questions when I have a better idea of what is going on! haha

x

[Tay]

No problem, will be waiting on your update.
xx

[Oslo Mummy]

Hi again!

Ok, so after very careful observation - there is no routine! haha  It is entirely my fault.  I have quite an active 'mummy and baby life' and a toddler to collect from nursery, so each day is quite different.  I think as I have a rather easy going baby, mabe I could get some help establishing a routine?  My little one is fairly easy, so I think anything that you suggest would probably be achievable - although I don't think he would have 3 long naps in the day (my first son could never manage a long nap with the first morning nap).

This is what is typical:

I feed approximately every three hours during the day (have dropped cluser feed now), so usually around 7, 10, 1, 4 and 7.  But it could just as easily start at 6.30 or as late as 8 (depending on how the night has been).  Sometimes 2 hours 45 between feeds, sometimes 3 hours 15 (you get my drift - quite flexible!)

He only stays awake for around 1 hour and 15 minutes at each awake period.  He is pretty much always in a good mood (except in the evenings if he has had too many short naps).

He is fairly easy to get to sleep now (maximum 5 minutes). 

If I am out and about with the pram, he will have 2 long naps (1.5 - 2 hours).  If we are at home and he is napping in his cot, he does x2 45s in the morning, and (hopefully) a longer mid day nap (around 2 hours).  I go to the nursery at around 3 - 4 with the pram so he always naps then.  The last nap is quite difficult (especially if he has only done a 45 for the one before).  Usually takes place around 5.30. 

He is always asleep for the night by 7.30/8.  He mostly wakes for the dreamfeed - approximately 3 hours after previous feed (so between 10 and 11).  On good nights he sleeps til 3 but mostly until 2 (horrifically sometimes 1).  Then he usually does another 3 hours (sometimes 2 - yuk!)  Then it gets messy.  If he feeds at 3, he wakes up at 6.30 to start the day (so only 1 night feed really - yipee!)  If he feeds at 1 or 2, he would also feed at 4 or 5 and then sleep until 7/7.30

Is this a big confusing mess?  I don't really know how to set it out as it changes from day to day (although there are some clear patterns).  It is difficult to know when to start the day and how to spread out feeds in the mornings.  For example if he feeds at 5, do I feed again when he wakes at 7 - or wait 3 hours?

I'm not feeding him to sleep, except in the middle of the night - should I not do this?

Thanks for any advice in advance!

[Vicku]

Hi there!

I think what you're doing sounds really good! And very normal at this stage With a toddler too things will have to be more flexible and all days might not be the same, but it sounds to me you are well on your way to a good flexible routine, which is what EASY should be anyway -flexible!

WRT the morning feeds, I always did a top up feed at wake up so say a top up at 7 even if I'd done a nightfeed at 5 or even 5:30. sometimes LO wouldn't take much at that feed but it would almost always mean she would be fine until the next feed and sort of 're-sets' the day with a feed at wake up.

Personally I think it's fine to feed to sleep in the middle of the night. Especially at this age and if you're not feeding to sleep for naps and bedtime you're teaching your LO to go to sleep in other ways so it shouldn't be a problem. *If* it would turn out to be a problem later on and you notice LO starting to depend on BF to get back to sleep, you can work on that then so I wouldn't worry about it for now if I were you. When a little older you can start to gently rouse LO after the feed so he can settle into sleep without the boob there.

[Tay]

Hiya,
 completely agree with Vicku that I don't see a problem in feeding to sleep in the middle of the night. And it does sound like your daytime routine is not that bad. I also used to do a 'top up' feed at around 7am so as to 'set' the start of the day.

But I can see how all of those night wakings would be driving me around the bend...
Have you seen http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=98183.0 ?

With mine I always used as a rule of thumb to decide wether to feed or not to feed in the middle of the night 3 points (to make sure I wasn't creating an association between feeding and sleeping):
1- how well did DS feed during the day? Was I happy enough that he took good feeds? Plenty of wet and dirty nappies etc?
2- the time of the last feed (I NEVER fed before the 3hr mark at night, I always assumed that if DS was able to go 3hrs during the day there was absolutely no reason why he shouldn't be able to at least do the same at night)
3- could I settle him some other way (or could DH settle him some other way).
So I would first try to settle him -at 8 weeks we were doing pat/sush -  and if he didn't settle easily after 10 min or so I would feed him.
Can I ask you: whenever you're home and he naps in his cot- how does he fall asleep?

You're doing really well, I know what it's like to have a toddler running around as well, not easy... And imho the more you can have the new baby fit into the existing family routine the better.
xxx

[Oslo Mummy]

Ah thanks so much for the encouragement ladies.  Last night was pretty bad - feeding every two hours (well 7, 11 then 2, 4, 6.30 - wake up at .  I like your tips about waiting at least 3 hours in the night.  I worry so much about not feeding him if he is hungry.  Last night he didnt seem that hungry at 2 even - and he went back into his cot awake but still managed to settle himself within 20 minutes (no crying, just panting and grunting! haha)

I think I might try your tip of trying to re-settle for 10 minutes before feeding, and not feeding within 3 hours.  I can cope with 3 hours, but 2 is pushing it = even if he is very cute!

For his naps at home, he either settles very easily on is his own (dark room, don't even need to swaddle anymore - he just puts himself to sleep within a few minutes), or if I have missed his cue, he cries for up to 5 minutes while I just gently put one hand on his stomach and stroke his head with the other.  He seems to get more frustrated with shhh pat.  He will cry a lot, but just gradually settles, knows I am there and the maximum time it takes would be 10 minutes.  Think this sounds ok - I went for instinct and learning from what my baby likes with this one, rather than trying to follow the book word for word!?  I usually just stroke/ touch him until he is calm - and then leave the room when he has the 7 mile stare/ is completely relaxed and he puts himself to sleep.  If he mantra cries, I usually leave the room and just go in to reassure him every few minutes/ or the minute proper crying starts.

He is a gigantic baby (7kg at 9 weeks).  How much milk should he be getting during the day now and how many feeds?  I may try and express to check how much he is taking....

Thanks again.  I'm going to try the minimum 3 hour spacing and 10 minute settling tonight and let you know how it goes.  I'm tired - off to nap while he does!


 

[Tay]

Hi there,
 How are you getting on? How did you do the last couple of nights?
xxx

[Oslo Mummy]

Hi there,

Sorry I disappeared over the holidays!  Thanks for all of the advice.  Things are going ok at the moment.  He started doing really well (even lasting until 5am a couple of nights) before Christmas.  And then room sharing with us and his baby brother led to lots of AP (sleeping with us, feeding on demand in the night etc) so that we didn't disturb his big brother (toddler).  Anyway - seem to be getting back on track now that we are finally at home and alone again!  He went until 4am from his dreamfeed last night - and then until 7.30 and I'm more than happy with that at age 3 months.  I think the key is making sure he falls asleep himself in the evening and that I put him back in his own bed (really trying to not fall asleep during the middle of the night feeds).  I'll keep you updated - but generally I think everything is going great.  He is such a happy chilled baby during the day so I can't complain!  His day time nap pattern isn't very BW though - he sleeps 45 in the morning and then a long lunch time nap around 2 hours and then either two short or one long nap after that.  Think this sounds ok?   Oh and when should I switch to feeding every 4 hours.  Are their specific signs or is the 4 month mark normal for everyone?

[Tay]

Hi there,
 Glad to hear things are going well. It does seem pretty good that your LO is going through to 4am! (I'm sure the extra sleep you're getting is also helping ).
I wouldn't worry about moving to a 4hr EASY yet, you really wouldn;t be looking into that until your LO is 4 months. The whole 4 hr EASY is more to do with A times than necessarily feeding routine, plus some BF babies can only go to 3.5hr and might not make it to 4hrs until they start solids (other do manage all right, you will have to test it out with your baby what works for him).
But there are a few signs to know when your baby is ready to increase A times : http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0
xxx