many sleep questions

[dcbby]

My 2 month old wakes up every morning in the 5's.  I think he is waking at this hour out of habit and dh thinks it's because of hunger. I know he is still pretty young and so his tummy is still small, so I always nurse him, but the problem is he does not go back to sleep after he wakes at this hour.  Occassionally he will wake at 2 or 4 and he will go back to sleep after he eats, but not when he wakes up during the 5 o'clock hour.  He goes to sleep usually between 8 and 9 and soemtimes I dreamfeed between 10 and 11 but soemtimes I don't because I found that he still wakes at the same time whether I df or not.  

So first of all my question is, is this considered an early waking or a night waking?  Also what should I be doing, should I continue to feed him  at this time, or try to put him back to sleep right away without feeding? At what age should he no longer need night feedings? How can I tell if he is waking out of habit or hunger?    

He also barely takes naps during the day, it is almost impossible to get him to nap at all and on the rare occassion that I can get him to take nap it does not last longer than 40 mins, usually more like 20 or 30.  So when I can get him back to sleep early in the morning, it is almost like another nap instead of a longer stretch of night sleep.  It just seems like he is waking at around 530 and he is ready to start the day, and I am so not! Also his older sister wakes between 7 and 8 so when  I can't get him back to sleep after trying till then, I have to stop trying and go take care of her.  By his next feeding he is exhausted (as am I) and he barely eats because he falls straight to sleep when he starts eating.

Any ideas what I should do?

Also I was wondering when I should be dropping his swaddle? I think that if he could find his fingers he would be able to self soothe better, but I tried to unswaddle one arm a few nights ago and he was not happy, he would not go to sleep at all becasue he kept startling and waking himself with his unswaddled arm.  Is two months too young to nix the swaddle?

[Colin Macs Mom]

bumping up for you

[jesie]

Hugs.

Swaddle: if he's still startling then he's not ready to stop yet. The last thing you want is for him too wake unnecessarily. So keep him swaddled for the time being.

I think your problem is he is very OT. If he's too tired to eat, he won't sleep long cos he'll be hungry and if also he's too tired to sleep properly.

Hopefully, someone will see this now and help you a little bit more.

Where are you? Cos with the 5am waking - which is an early wake (EW) (others may not suggest this but) our clocks are about to go forward so once if juggling the routine helped with the sleeping I would leave the EW as it should resolve with the clock change (that is of course if you have clocks changing)

Could you post your easy? 

[my3girlsjde]

I would also consider the 5am an EW if he's not going back down.

Let's take a look at your EASY and we'll see what we can do to help

[dcbby]

Thanks for the advice!

I did think about the clocks changing and how then he will wake in the 6's, but then will he begin to wake in the 5's again when we change the clocks back? I know I'm getting way ahead of myself I was just wondering if there is a way to fix the early waking.
As far as his EASY routine goes I have problems establishing that too because he is not a great napper, it is hard to get him asleep and to get him to stay asleep especially because I also have a 2 year old at home so it's not like I can spend the whole day settling him.

So we started going out for his second nap of the day so that way he at least gets one nap in and my 2 year old and I get some time together too.

So honestly it's pretty hard to get him on a set EASY but a typical day looks like this:

7am- E

7:45- A change diaper, reflux meds, vitamins, gas drops- hang out with big sis for a few

8:30- attempt at a nap (wind down, usually can sometimes get him to sleep for about 30-     40 minutes, sometimes shorter, I try to resettle him, if that fails by 9:45 or 10 I give up and feed.

10am- E

10:45/11- A get ready to go out (diaper change, warm clothes, etc)

11/11:30- S in the stroller/car seat (out for walk or activity with big sis) when we get back he will usually stay asleep for about an hour so I am able to have lunch with dd and then put her for a nap.

1:30/2pm- E

3/3:30pm- attempt at another nap. sometimes he will go down for about 30 to 40 minutes (this is the time that I really try to work on his nap because dd is usually napping now or playing quietly in her room.  

4:30/5pm-E
after this feed I kind of wing it day by day honestly because I try to give dd dinner and honestly I can't always get him to go down for a nap during this time especially since this is  shorter nap in general and it takes me most of the nap time to finally get him to sleep
so sometimes I a try and sometimes I don't

6:30/7- E followed by bath and bed.
putting him to sleep usually takes a while sometimes till 9 but then he will stay asleep till 5ish, sometimes he will wake up at 2 but he hasn't done that in a while and sometimes I dream feed but sometimes not because he seems to wake up the same time whether he has a dream feed or not.

So even though he goes for a long stretch at night he does not sleep so much during the day.  I know this may be why he wakes early but it's hard to get him to nap.

Thanks again for any advice and encouraging words!

[*Ali*]

Hi,
How does your Lo go to sleep? Do you feed, pat, hold, rock etc.?
Have you tried wearing him in a sling when you need to be doing dinner etc. in the evening.
I think he is mega OT. Average A time for 2mo is 1hr15-20mins so he is up a really long time in between naps, especially if he is only sleeping 40mins or so. I would recommend you cit his A time right back. And also if he is waking at 5am you really want to be aiming to have him down for the night around 5pm, 6pm at the absolute latest. I know this is not your ideal WU time but the more OT he is the more likely he is to continue waking so early.
You may wish to try to implement the DF again more consistently if you think it could be hunger related. Ideally though you want to be doing this around 3hrs after BT so a 7pm BT would mean a DF around 10pm for example. I think it will just disturb him if he is going to sleep at 9pm and you are getting him up again to do a DF at 10pm.
Here is a link you may find helpful for ideas on what to do with DD while you are putting DS down for a nap.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63933.0
What do you think?

Also edited to say do you think his reflux is fully under control or could that be preventing him from napping well?

Ali

[dcbby]

Hi thanks for your response!
So he goes to sleep with shush pat, although sometimes more shush than pat, depending on his mood, but it does take a while for him to be finally asleep. The reason why I am not consistent with the dream feed is because I've been having trouble getting him to latch in his sleep, (I have a post about this under breast feeding) so sometimes its just not worth it, especially since it did not seem to help him sleep any later.
I've tried wearing him in a carrier during dinner hour, as well as other times during the day, however he mostly cries rather than relaxes and goes to sleep, so I think this isn't working, I might as well be trying to put him to sleep in his crib, rather than waste energy and time trying to get him to sleep in a carrier.
I did think reflux was the problem, but the doctor said if he is on zantac, he should not be in pain anymore. but he will still have reflux.
Meanwhile since changing the clocks he slept till 7:30 today! So I'm happy about that but I don't know if it will continue, I will keep you posted!

 

[*Ali*]

It is nice to put the clocks forward so the EWs become more manageable isn't it?
Just because he is on reflux meds doesn't mean it is the right med or dose or completely working for him. But if the dr is happy I guess you just need to keep an eye on it and make sure the dose is changed as he gets older so it is still working etc. Do you take any other measures to help with the reflux like elevating his cot or keeping him upright after a feed for 20mins or so?
Could you try a bottle of EBM for the dreamfeed?I think some babies who struggle to latch while asleep are able to take the bottle instead.
If the carrier doesn't work for him, that's fine, just an idea I know some mama's of two use to keep their hands free.
Are you planning to cut his A time and try to keep BT a bit earlier?
Let us know how it goes.

[dcbby]

Believe I wish the carrier worked, he also wont take a pacifier so I can't even help soothe him with that!
The weird thing is, I know that BW says that the longer you wait to put a baby to sleep the longer and harder it will be because s/he will be more overtired.  However it seems to be the opposite with my lo, he will cry and cry when I try early, but it seems when I try later, when he is probably already OT, he calms down and goes to sleep much quicker.  I know this doesn't really make sense, and he doesn't stay asleep for a long time, but thats what happens.
Also I don;t think I could push his bedtime back because he doesn't go down for a nap well between 5 and 6 or 6 and 7, so how would he go to sleep for the night then?
Also it's not that I put him to bed at 9, I start his BT routine at 7, with a feeding and then bath, jammies, meds, then I nurse him for a few more minutes (I don't like to put him to bed for the night without making sure he is full). then we do swaddle, songs, cuddles, and into bed with shush pat (once in a while he will go to sleep completely independently, but he usually need shush pat help) The problem is on the nights that he needs shush pat help, I generally start at 7:45/8 and it can take till 9 for him to actually settle and fall completely asleep.
How can  get him to sleep earlier if he just fights it?
 

[*Ali*]

The weird thing is, I know that BW says that the longer you wait to put a baby to sleep the longer and harder it will be because s/he will be more overtired.  However it seems to be the opposite with my lo, he will cry and cry when I try early, but it seems when I try later, when he is probably already OT, he calms down and goes to sleep much quicker.  I know this doesn't really make sense, and he doesn't stay asleep for a long time, but thats what happens.

Sounds like he is getting to the point where he is so OT he is just passing out. Common but as you say it leads to restless sleep and they wake early.
If you can shorten his  A times I think that might mean he is ready for BT earlier. Have you tried starting the BTR earlier so that you are starting to put him in the cot and the shh/pat at 7pm rather than 7.45/8. At least if he still takes an hour or so to settle he would be asleep earlier.
Did your clocks change yet? Not sure where you are and I know N. America changed this weekend and in the Uk and Europe I think we change at the end of the month. I am guessing you are N. America by your vocab am I right? His routine will have moved on so much by the time they go back again in Oct that it will be a completely different story anyway.
Could you do a few more naps in the stroller if he sleeps well there just to try to get out of the IT cycle? And if he is like my DS there is no crying when he goes to sleep in the stroller as he doesn't know you are trying to put him to bed. Might help to get out more with your DD too. I used to go mad obsessing about naps etc.
HTH.

Ali

[babybarr]

Also if you miss their sleep window they can take *forever* to unwind and then fall asleep.  It really does sound like the reflux isn't fully sorted.  What meds is he on and how much?  I know that with DS he kept needing an increase to keep on top of his weight gain.

What tired signs does he give?  I know at that age I would have to watch DS like a hawk and on that first yawn get him down pdq to avoid OT.

[*Ali*]

I was also thinking that it would be a good idea for you to post on the Reflux board ( http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?board=13.0 ) to ask what you could expect to see in your LO if the Zantac isn't working. It really is quite unusual for a baby to cry so much for no apparent reason and be so difficult to comfort if there is nothing physically wrong so it is definitely worth ruling our any problems with the reflux.
What do you think?

[dcbby]

I was also thinking that it would be a good idea for you to post on the Reflux board ( http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?board=13.0 ) to ask what you could expect to see in your LO if the Zantac isn't working. It really is quite unusual for a baby to cry so much for no apparent reason and be so difficult to comfort if there is nothing physically wrong so it is definitely worth ruling our any problems with the reflux.
What do you think?

Thanks thats a good idea I'll look into that.
It's just that no matter if I catch him at the first yawn (which isn't always possible because I need to watch dd too, so I obviously can't constantly be staring at ds) it will take even longer sometimes to get him to sleep, plus he still wont stay asleep very long.  So maybe it is a reflux issue. 

[babybarr]

It sounds like a reflux issue to me.  I know with us zantac worked for a while and then quickly had to be upped and then we changed to a PPI - which changed my bad napper into a good napper!

(((((hugs))))) for you though, reflux is hard.  Sometimes you just have to do whatever to get them through.  Car rides, sling, buggy (at least that way he'll be a bit more upright)  Hang in there.  We are here for you