Need help with EASY - short naps

[Kta400]

My DS is 7 months and we have been on EASY since 3 months. He has come a long way over the past month. He is a touchy baby with a spirited side coming through. He has reflux (controlled) and a dairy/soy intolerance. Since we have gotten the intolerance under control he is less fussy and is finally able to self soothe to fall asleep! Yay!

BUT....He has always been a bad napper and only sleeps for 30-45 minutes. I have played around with his A time and nothing seems to work. I know at 7 months they should be able to do an A time of 2.30-3 hours. but he can't seem to handle anything past 2-2.15. He gets very OT and then can't settle well and cries during wind down. We do a short wind down - dim lights with diaper change, very quick board book, then in crib. He doesn't settle to sleep right away but has recently been able to put him self to sleep (most of the time). He almost always wakes after 32-35 minutes. Sometime it will be even after 25. I know he is OT but can't seem to figure it out. I have tried longer A times and shorter ones. I feel so bad for him because by the end of the day he is so crabby after 3-4 30 minute naps. I am guilty and will often pick him up after 30 minutes and hold him so he can sleep another hour. I NEED a break and NEED him to sleep longer for naps! HELP!! Here is an example of a typical day if I don't hold him for more sleep - He usually NW at 4:30 or 5:30 and am trying to get him to go wake up later but no luck yet.

E- 4:30
S- goes back to sleep after usually 45 minutes and then will only sleep 40 more minutes
E- 6:00
A- 6:00-8:00
S- 8:00-8:30 (If I want to go somewhere I will hold him until 9:30)
A- 8:30-10:00 (super tired - he gets loud!)
E- 10:00
S- 10:15-10:45
A- 10:45-12:15
S- 12:15-1:00
E- 1:30
A- Gets shorter and shorter as he doesn't sleep
S- 2:30-3:00
A-  He won't go down for a final nap - fights it big time. So I give him a bath around 5:00
E- 5:30
S- BT at 6:00 or 6:30 depending on how long it takes him to fall asleep.

He will sleep for 10 hours (to the minute!) and always wakes between 4:00 and 5:00.

Please help. I know he is OT but breaking this cycle is so hard.
Thank you ahead of time.

[tigerlilly905]

More ((hugs)) hun! An ot cycle is really hard.

I guess from looking at your EASY my best suggestion would be to first tackle that EW (NW) at 4:30am.  Although he goes back to sleep within 45 mins, my guess is that his little brain is trying to start the day at 4:30 since he's not going right back to sleep after that night feed, kwim? So it's almost like his first "A" time is that 45 mins it takes to go back to sleep, does that make sense?

Have you tried to wean that feed?  Do you do a DF to help keep him full? How is his solids intake? I'm just wondering if there's a way to "tank him up" so he's not waking to eat so early? ...

I think though, since he's eating at 4:30 am and then again at 6am, he can't be truly hungry for the 4:30 am feed and he's waking out of habit.  That's only 1.5 hrs between feeds, so I think he's using that feed to self soothe. OR If he truly is hungry at 4:30am, have you tried to get him back to sleep when he wakes at 6am instead of feeding him again and starting the day?  If you've just fed him  at 4:30am, then by 6am he must not be starving. Perhaps you can get him back to sleep again for an hour or so? Even if you could get him to start his day closer to 7:30am I would think that would help him catch up on his sleep and start the day off at a better place.

My feeling is that once the day can get started on the right track, you can work on fixing the rest.  I think you'll be able to start the day off better once that feed is weaned.

Also, your first real nap around 8am after the 2 hr A time, have you tried doing that earlier just to help him catch up?  It would seem he's already OT by the time you get him to bed if he's only doing a 30 min nap. I know you want to extend his A times, especially if he's 7 months, but I think that until that EW at 4:30am is dealt with I don't know if you'll be able to extend much, kwim?

Thats the best I can think of ATM. Hopefully some others will be able to pop on with some thoughts as well.

xo

[Kta400]

Thanks Rebecca... your advise helps. How do you suggest weaning the 4:30 feed? Just feed him less? I have tried resettling him but he just gets really mad! We just started solids last weekend but I am only feeding him a small portion in the morning. I want to add solids before bed buy not sure when to increase his meals. I don't want to upset his little tummy since we had so many issues with dairy/soy.

Last night he went to bed a bit later - 7:30 so he woke at 5:25. I fed him and then put him back in the crib... then he got the hiccups and was pretty mad so I got him out and tried to soothe. He went back down for an hour at 7:00-8:00. His naps were then 35 minutes from 10:00-10:35. I left him alone (with a little help) and after 30 minutes he fell back asleep for only 10 minutes. Then he was really mad! So I got him up.

His next nap was at 12:45-1:25. I took him for a walk in the stroller before this nap and he seemed really calm. He slept for 40 minutes and wouldn't resettle and I could tell he was hungry.  His last nap was a joke, 25 minutes from 3:15-3:40.

I will try to go with shorter A times tomorrow!

[Kta400]

Today's EW went a little better. He woke at 4:10 and I first tried to resettle him but that didn't work. I fed him but didn't give him as much as normal. He fell back to sleep at 5:25 (not sure if being awake is that great now that I write this) but he did fall back asleep for 1.25 nap. Then at 7:00 was BF and solids at 7:45. He was already rubbing eyes by 8:20 so I got him upstairs and he was asleep by 8:35. I am hoping we have a longer nap this time!

[tigerlilly905]

Thats good progress I'd say...hopefully you can wean the NF and have a later wake up eventually.  Yes, I'd gradually decrease what you are feeding him, or if breastfeeding, don't let him nurse as long, and gradually wean him from that feed. In BWSAYP page 123 it details how to wean the dream feed. I know that's not a dream feed, but it can give you an idea of one way to wean it.  THis might be helpful:  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=98183.0  Here's a link about weaning night feeds as well, it should be very helpful http://www.kellymom.com/bf/weaning/weaning-night.html

 How did the nap go?

[tigerlilly905]

Oh, and I wanted to ask, what method are you using to try and put him back to sleep? PU/PD? Have you looked into trying W2S to nap extend as well?

[Kta400]

So his first two naps were bad... 30 minutes. I kept his A time really short 1.20-1.30. He went down really easy for both but still woke up early. For his 3rd nap I decided to walk around the house singing softly to him to see if that would help calm him down and not overstimulate. I don't know if that worked or what happened but after taking about 20 minutes to settle and fall asleep, he slept for 1.30! Hurray! Now if I can just get that to happen again!

I have tried W2S and that has never worked with him. He use to be swaddled and I would HTTJ and that worked sometimes, didn't others. Now that he is out of the swaddle and often on his tummy, I am not sure how to do that... you would think being on his tummy would help with the jolts. I did PU/PD and Shush/Pat when we were breaking him of bad habits (rocking to sleep). He can't stand Shush/Pat anymore and I have found that the less I touch him the better. PU/PD makes him super mad and really only worked to get him use to going in the crib. It doesn't seem to work once he has woken from a nap.

These babies are so tricky!

[Kta400]

Oh and thank you so much for taking time to help me figure this out! I really appreciate it!

[tigerlilly905]

No problem hun. These babies are tricky, for sure! Sometimes it's just trial and error to find out what works best for your l/o.

Keeping things low key before nap is definitely a good call I would think, esp. to avoid O/S in a spirited baby.

You say he gets "mad" at pu/pd? ... lol, I think most babies get mad at it But it is a teaching tool, and maybe that could be what he needs to learn to get back to sleep? It could be worth looking into... there's lots of info on the pu/pd board.  Since he's older, I wouldn't expect shh/pat to really work as well at this age, esp being spirited.  I don't know much about doing pu/pd with a spirited kiddo though, since mine is still too young for that. 

How's the NF/EW going?

So his first two naps were bad... 30 minutes. I kept his A time really short 1.20-1.30. He went down really easy for both but still woke up early

When this happened, what was his wake up like? Did he EW again?

Hope things are going a bit better. xo

[- butterfly -]

my lo is 7 months on Thursday and I could have written your post!!  I really hope it's going better for you today.

I'll be interested to see and learn from your post!!

good luck xx

[Kta400]

Hi all,
Well we had one day where he had 4 naps all lasting 30 minutes. Yesterday he had an hour long nap in the morning and then short ones the rest of the day.

Most of the time he wakes up crying but sometimes he wakes up quiet. I started giving him solids (small amount) in the PM hoping to tank him up for night but he has been waking up even earlier - 3:30 the last 2 nights. He takes about an hour to get back to sleep. Today he slept for another hour and a half so I guess that was good. First nap was again 30 minutes. Ugh.

I will give PU/PD another shot. I just feel like it never really works and he just cries even harder for the whole time I am doing it. But I will try it again!

Thanks TigerLilly and butterfly

[Kta400]

I need some more help... these short naps just are not getting better and I still can't seem to break the EW! I have tried feeding DS less at 4:00am but he continues to wake up sometime between 3:30 and 4:30 every morning. I have recently tried to push back his bedtime to see if he can go a little longer but he continues to wake at the same time. Learned behavior? If I don't go into his room he starts screaming. He is totally wide awake so resetting him doesn't work. I always change is diaper first and then try to settle. End of feeding him.

I have been able to get him to go back to sleep after an hour. Today he woke at 4:00 and then was asleep by 5:00 and slept until 6:30.  I fed him at 7:00 and then after following his cues he was asleep again by 8:15. So an A time of 1.45. He slept for 30 minutes. I have tried shorter A times and he still sleeps for 30 minutes! AHHH!

The rest of the day is about the same. His A times are usually under 2 hours and I just get 30 minute naps. Do I just have a chronic cat-napper on my hands? Sometimes he will take 45 mintues to settle in his crib before falling asleep and I then wonder if he is UT but then sleeps 30 minutes.

Anyone have any suggestions for me??

[tigerlilly905]

Well, I can say that it's normal for babies to be somewhat unsettled between the hrs of abour 4am - 7am since they are in a light sleep phase. I've found that learning independent sleep/self soothing can help past that (along with being on the proper routine of course) But I know that's not much help atm.

So W2S hasn't worked with him, right? Hummm... When he wakes at 30 mins is he happy? or screaming? If he's crying I think he's still ot, tbh... but with those short A times I just don't get it. It must be a combination of the EW and short naps catching up to him.  But if he's happy after a 30 min nap, then I'm thinking it must be UT? You're probably stuck in an OT/UT loop.

I wish that EW was getting better for you. ((hugs)) I still think that needs to get under control before you can figure out proper daytime A's to gauge your naps, kwim?  Maybe try not changing his diaper at 4am, that could OS him and make him think it's time to start the day? Can you try W2S at night?

Could you PM ~Sara~ (the EASY MOD) to see if she can take a peak at your post? She's REALLY good at EASY's and maybe could have some good suggestions.

I'm sort of out of suggestions ATM. Good luck sweets!

[Kta400]

Thanks for all of your help! I will try no diaper change (I usually do this because he was leaking by this time but if he is not wet I will not change it!). I haven't tried W2S at night.. just naps. I will give it a go! I am usually up pumping at 3:30 anyway!

[Kta400]

Oh I forgot to say... when waking up after 30 minutes he is usually crying. Today's second nap was 45 minutes so UT I guess. It is soooo hard to figure out the right timing!