UT/OT loop or chronically OT??

[missyb]

Firstly I am not sure if this should be in the getting back on track board or this one, as I am not sure if we have a track to get back on to be honest.  But either way please feel free to move it if needed.

Right, N is 6mths 1week Angel baby.  He has never been the best sleeper as he has suffered with reflux and on-going chest infections, but we have now turned a real corner and he is well and the reflux is well under control with meds and the fact that he is now sitting and on solids. 

Basically I think he is getting the right amount of sleep for his age, it is just how he is getting it and I think we are caught in a bit of an UT/OT loop, or he is completely OT and I am misjudging it-hence some extra eyes would be good.

Our day roughly looks like:

7.30 am wake up with 200mls on waking
8.30-9ish solids
10ish-10-1040 nap. Will only sleep 30-40min
1130 250mls
1230 nap.  Generally after about 2hrs A time.  Will sleep anywhere from 1.5hrs to 3hrs, but it is generally 2.5hrs.
3pm wake
3.30 250mls
5pm solids, bath,
5.30 attempt at a CN but rarely has it
6pm bottle (200mls) bed but doesn’t normally settle to 6.30ish.
Midnight 250mls. Wakes for feed.

Some times he will have 2 x 20min in the morning then a late arvo nap but that always results in a earlier start to the day.  He does tend to tack on whatever day sleep he has missed out on to his night sleep and not wake up till about 8ish. But I normally wake him by 8am at the latest to try and keep the day on track.

When he goes to bed, he generally cries and will only settle with his dummy.  Which he will suck for a few minutes and then start playing with it and self settle.  I initially thought the short naps were because the prop was a dummy but he sometimes wakes with it in, but most of the time has taken it out before he goes to sleep.

But at night he always goes to bed without his dummy and no crying, regardless of how long he has been up.

We can never get a long first nap, and generally does an A time of about 2-2.5hrs.  He starts grizzling at the 1.45hr mark and I have tried putting him down but he won’t have a bar of it. And if we have to go out, he won’t fall asleep in the car until the 2.25hr mark. But then he only ever sleeps 25min in the car regardless.

I have also tried a short A time after the 40min naps but he very rarely (even if we are in the car) will go to sleep before the 2hr mark.

I used to be able to easily resettle him when he woke after 30min, but I am no longer able to do that, hence why I think we might be in an UT/OT loop, but I am not convinced, infact I just don’t know what else to try anymore.

Does anyone have any fresh ideas on what to try to get him sleeping in a little more balanced way??

[ZacsMumme]

My thought is that maybe he needs more A time in the morning before that first nap. The first nap could be OT, but I dont think so if his nights are that great.

If you could get that first nap closer to 2hrs45min then 3hrs (over a few weeks) you may find he sleeps longer. If you can get a longer first nap your next A time will need to be increased closer to 3 hours again...then the nap capped at 2hrs to keep you on track for BT.


So your day may look more like this
WU 7.30
Nap 10.15-1.45 ish
Nap 2.45-3.15 (or 3.45) ish
BT 7ish maybe later if he likes a long last A

[missyb]

Thanks for your advice.  I think we might be onto something here.

I very bravely stretched his first A time out yesterday to 2hrs50min and he slept for 2hrs!!! In fact I had to wake him.  Our afternoon nap wasn't so successfull as he only did his 40min again, but I had also put him to bed earlier as he was really grouchy but looking back I think it was more frustration with his lack of being able to move than anything else.

So today, we did the same first A time, and although he woke at the 40min mark he resettled him self back to sleep, which I don't think he has ever done before   And he slept for 2hrs again

I really pushed him to do a 3hr A time after this and he still asleep after 1.5hrs now

Only problem is, with this his milk feeds are becoming more like 4.5hrs apart, which is fine accept I am concious of trying to get as much into him during the day as I would love him to drop that night feed (which I think now is becomeing more habbit than hunger).

Today he will have 3 meals, all 1hr after milk, which he needs after such a long A time, as otherwise he would be going to bed only 1hr before E again, if that makes sense??

ANother question??  Today we can hapily have 2 x 2hr naps as he woke at 6.30am (early BT last night due to short nap) so I have extra to get him through to BT, but on a 12 hr day it doesn't all fit in.  He does minimum 12hrs in bed at night, so do I need to wake him after 1.5hrs to fit it all in or do I just have a 13hr day?? But then what happens if he still doese 12hrs at night??

Will be interesting to see how he sleeps tonight and whether or not sleep does encourage sleep. As historically he has always done longer stretches at night when he has had bad nap days as he is so exhausted.

He still screamed when he went to bed, but I just handed him his dummy, he quietened down, popped his dummy in and was asleep before I made it to the end of the hall :-)

Hopefully this isn't just a fluke and is goign to stick around like this for a while.  Only gutting thing is that this way I can't get both the boys in bed at the same time, It has been literally one up, one down, one up one down!!

[ZacsMumme]

Your day may be closer to 13 hours. This is normal for his age really, a lot of LOs do ~10.5-11 a night around 6 months.
you can cap one of those naps at 1.5 hrs. But he may self regulate after a week or so as he gets used to more day sleep IYKWIM.

Great one on the naps.

Can you post your EAS so I can see sleep vs feeding etc. it is normal for the feeds to start stretching, I think we dd BF on wake up, after am nap, after pm nap and before BT...the last 2 would be closer together.

[missyb]

Yesterday really looked like a textbook 13hr day!!

It went

6.35am wake
7am bottle (200mls)
8am solids
9.20-11.15 Nap
11.30 Bottle-180mls (4.5hrs since last bottle, but wasn’t overly interested-he drank it but only really cause it was there.)
12.45 solids
2.20-4.30pm Nap (which I woke him from)
4.30pm Bottle 220mls (5hrs since last bottle)
5.30pm Solids
6pm bath
7pm bottle 250mls
7.30 sleep for the night

NWíng with bottle 3am 200mls

7.30am Wake ( I woke him)

Because he is still having that night bottle, he isn’t starving in the morning, hence why I leave him 20-30min before giving it to him.  Also this means I can give him his Losec and it has a while to work before his milk.  And it also gives me time to sort out his brother.

I have noticed since upping his solids his milk has dropped a little, which is fine cause he is still getting 1000mls/day which is HEAPS. But I think he is getting to the point where he prefers his solids over milk.  Also that night bottle is effecting the feeds for the day.

Hopefully today will be another good one and it all just isn’t a fluke!!

[ZacsMumme]

Great day! If you start to worry that your nights are suffering and over time they get a bit shorter you can cap one of the naps at 1.5hrs to keep that last nap WU no later than 4pm.

Your E looks fine too, just always offer milk first as you are, and I found afternoons were a bit of a tank up ie milk then solids then milk before BT.

[missyb]

Thanks.  I am feeling rather excited as he is almost at the end of another 2hr nap this morning after a 2.45hr A time, so I think we are on to something.

I like the idea of capping the last nap at 1.5hrs to fit it all in so we will see how we go.

Thanks for you help.

[missyb]

Hi Sara,

Just wanted to update you and let you know things are going really well and thank you for your help.

I am now getting 2 really good naps in a day of 1.5-2hrs with a 3hr A time.  Who would have thought.  And on the days where we need to go out, we do so in the morning, and I can catch him up with a big 2.5-3hr nap in the afternoon.

We are basically on a 4-4.5hr EASY

Our nights are still not ideal with a night feed, but he is starting to take less during that feed now, so when I feel better (i have been sick over the past 2weeks) I will start addressing that. At the moment it is just easier to feed him and get myself back into bed.

We are also dealing with a bit of reflux flare up due to solids and me being a bit too eager and introducing too much too fast, so the dummy is becoming a prop, but he is doing really well finding it himself and re-plugging himself, so it isn't too much of an issue, and I have pulled back on the solids a little and he is settling down.  But even with this we are having good naps!!

So just wanted to say a big thank you for your help-yet again!!!

[ZacsMumme]

Wonderful progress hun. Looks like great progress. IMO there is always something, and at times you just do what you can to get through. At 13 months  have been feeding Z in the night for a few weeks on and off as he is not 100%. I know I need to address it once I feel he is better...that is the nature of LOs unfortunately

What a smart boy with the dummy, it is easier when they can replug
When you are ready, if you need help with the NF etc do pop over to the NW board for some advice if you need it!  S x