6.5 month old angel baby - never STTN, DESPERATE for help please

[Yogamom]

Hi!  DS is a 6.5 month old, EBF angel baby.  He has never STTN.  While I would LOVE LOVE LOVE for him to STTN/do a long 8 hour stretch, we are currently dealing with awful and long NW.  The NW is usually around 3, but can be as early as 2 and lasts anywhere from 1-2 hours.  Most of the time the NW looks like an inability to settle, I'll give him the pacifier and hold my hand on his bank and he will settle for a few minutes, and then start stirring again (my hand still on his back) or I will pat him firmly and he will settle but wake the minute I stop patting (no matter how long I've been patting).  I've tried feeding him immediately (although my gut tells me he does not need this feeding anymore) and still he is unable to settle.  Lately, after about an hour of trying to settle him in the crib (always after feeding to rule out hunger), I will pick him up and rock him for about 20 minutes and then put him back in the crib and he will sleep through til his EW of 5:30.  On a really bad night, he is not just merely unable to settle - he is high pitched screaming and I can feed him to quiet him, but then he will take hours to actually settle back to sleep.

Some background: DS has been on EASY since birth and is without a doubt an angel baby.  He is sociable, smiley and *most of the time* a great napper (knock on wood).  He has never STTN but has a handful of times done a 6-hour stretch.  He is EBF and eating three meals a day.  We only recently started the third meal in hopes of getting a longer night time stretch, but things have gotten worse.  I don't think he has tummy troubles because he naps well and his solids are really easy solids like pear, sweet potato, and just a little apple and carrot.

Props: He has a pacifier, but doesn't use it to fall asleep for night or naps unless he is very OT.  He sucks his fingers usually.

3-2 Transition:  On days that DS naps well, we usually only have 2 naps, and an early bedtime.  On days where DD has school, or his naps are bad, he will pretty happily go down for a third nap or fall asleep in the car for 20 min on the way home from an activity.

General EASY (3 nap day which ive been sticking to bc i thought he was getting OT)
EW: 530
E: 7
A: til 8:30ish (solids around
S: 8:30-10
E:11 (solids at 12)
S: 1-2:30 (or 3) --> if this nap starts late or finishes after 3 i'll for an early bedtime rather than super late cat nap
E: 3 (solids 5)
S: this nap varies bc its always in the car but usually 20 min bw 4-5
A: solids at 5
Bedtime 6:30 if 2 naps, 7 if 3 (and feed right before bed)
NW 1: 11ish -- takes big feed and goes right back down
NW 2: 3ish -- loooong NW and feeding does not resettle him, and if it does only for 10-15 min or so.

Oh, no sign of teeth so i dont think its that.

Please help me make a plan to get rid of this long 2nd nw!!!!!

[Yogamom]

Just wanted to update how last night went.  I'm not sure why DS is waking - but these marathon NW are exhausting!!

6:30 Bedtime feed and bedtime
12: NW 1 (YAYAYAY! Fed at this NW and he went right back to sleep)
2: NW 2 - I was determined NOT to feed.  He was awake and fussing, not crying.  I went in and put a hand on his back and like other nights, he settled for a few minutes and then started fussing.  I tried using my voice and hand on his back and then just my voice.  After half an hour of this settling and fussing, he got angry and started crying.  I started PU/PD, but only for about 15 minutes because I really haven't brushed up on how its done for his age (worked like a dream for DD I remember). When he was pretty angry, I sat with him in the rocking chair until he was calm and pretty sleepy and put him in his crib.  I could see on the monitor his eyes were still open and he was sucking his fingers.  Then he started to cry but I waited a minute and he stopped.  A minute later he cried again - louder - but stopped after a minute.  This went on for about 20 minutes and then he fell asleep. I think (hope) it was just a mantra cry, but he was SOOO loud and shrill that I'm not even sure.

5:30 - NW/EW: Fed here since it had been a while (and hoping to get him back down easily).  He fussed for a little after feed so I gave him paci and he slept til 6:40! (yay!)

I really would love to be able to figure out WHY he is waking in the first place and what I can do to stop these NW! Did I totally mess up by starting PU/PD and then not following through?? 

I don't mind a NF, but I know he doesn't need to eat every 2-3 hours in the night.

Please help! Thanks in advance!

[katie80]

Hi Yogamom, sorry it took so long for you to get a reply.  I'm not sure what's causing the NWs either, tbh, but there are definitely a few things you can try to help.  How long has he been waking like this?  Does he have any history of reflux?  A long NW can be an indicator of discomfort, that's why I ask. You mentioned that things have gotten worse since you started a third meal of solids.  You're right in that you're giving him very easy things to digest, so I don't *think* that's what's causing the NWs, but I wonder if you just went back to offering them at breakfast and lunch, so he has a good while to digest them, to see if they might be bothering him at all.

Typically, a long NW like his and at his age would mean he's UT.  He's got a very age-appropriate routine though, and the A times are about right on.  I'm assuming you don't notice a difference in the NW if he has either two naps or three?  I think ditching the CN might be a place to start, as often that can help get rid of an EW.  Would he sleep longer for the morning nap if you let him?  I wonder if he did a 2 hr nap in the morning and a 2 hr nap in the afternoon, so 8:30-10:30 and 1:30-3:30 with bedtime at 6:30/7 pm, if he might start to sleep better at night and longer in the morning.  You mentioned that you pick up your DD from school some days, would a routine like that be possible?

The other option you have would be to do something like you did last night and use PUPD to settle him at the NW.  There's a chance it has just become habitual.  I don't think that you totally messed up by starting PUPD and not following through.  You didn't end up feeding him and that's mainly the biggest concern.  As for the stop/start crying, it is typically thought of as a mantra cry, but if it was truly shrill, I would err on the side of staying in the room with him during that point, out of sight, just so you can step in if needed.  Here are the guidelines for age-appropriate PUPD.  Have a read through those first and let me know what you think.  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=208990.0

[Yogamom]

Hi Katie! Thank you so much for your reply!!

Well last night wasn't as bad, but I think I may have messed up *again*!!  Bedtime was at 7:30, NW 1 at 11:30, and I fed at this NW, hoping that a longer 6 hour stretch would come after.  He only fed from one side though and would NOT feed from the other side.  He went right back down and woke again at 4.  I fed at this NW too because I figured he was hungry after only taking 1 side.  He fed and went right back down until 6, when a poop unfortunately woke him.  SOOO, there was no long NW which is awesome and 11:30-4 is great for him!!

Should he be able to go a longer stretch at his age? Would you have fed him at that 11:30 NW??

I agree that previous night, the NW would seem UT, but he had a bad nap day for himself as it was a school day for DD and my MIL could not re-settle him during his 2nd nap.  So if anything, he was OT that night. (Two 45 min naps and 1 30 min nap.)

A routine like you suggested is totally doable I think.  He would definitely do a longer 2hr nap if I stretch him a little past the 3 hour A time mark.  Unfortunately, on DD school days, he usually only does a 45 min nap in his car seat so those are the days we go for a 3rd nap.  Once DD starts camp, the timing will be different and hopefully I can get him home before nap time so he will nap in his crib.


Thanks so much for your suggestions! And thanks for the link for PU/PD...I will take a read through before tonight!

[katie80]

Well last night wasn't as bad, but I think I may have messed up *again*!! 

I don't think you've messed up at all, you're just doing your best with the situation. Don't be too hard on yourself!

Should he be able to go a longer stretch at his age? Would you have fed him at that 11:30 NW??

I do think he can probably go longer than that, esp since he basically made it through the night on two half feeds. I think that his NWs are mostly routine/habit driven. You can try a couple things for the NFs. One is a DF (dream feed), where you would feed him sometime between 10 and 11, by just going to him and taking him out of the crib to feed him rather than waiting for him to wake and then not feeding again til morning (or offering one side at a waking around 5-6, just to see him through). The other option would be to set an amount of time, say 6 hr, and not feed before then at night, resettling if he wakes and doing the same with the early morning feed if need be.

Now that I know more about your day, I agree the other night was probably an OT waking. That's the frustrating thing, they can often look quite similar.

I also know it's hard to work around another child's activities. Would he ever stay asleep in the carseat if you just moved it inside into his room (assuming he's still in an infant seat)? Or would he transfer to his crib (mine never have, so I know that's probably a long shot)? I just think he would likely settle in pretty well if he could do two solid naps, but that's usually easier said then done. Hopefully, that will work out when your DD's at camp.

[Yogamom]

Thanks again for your thoughts!!  Apparently, all that I needed to do was start posting on BW, and DS would get his act together.  Last night, bedtime was at 7, NW 1 (and NF) at 2 and then up for the day at 6!! (Which I don't think is an EW because that's an 11 hour night!) YAYAYAY!!!  Yesterday was a good EASY (no school!)

A: 6:10
E: 7:30
S: 9:10-11:10
E: 11:30
S: 1:50-3:10 (probably should have stretched the previous A time but oh well)
E: 3:30
S: 5-5:15 in the car
Bedtime 7:15

I do think he must be getting OT on DD's school days, which unfortunately is just something we are stuck with.  He will not continue sleeping in the car seat, I do try and transfer him to his crib and it works like 10% of the time.  On nice days I pop the car seat into the stroller and walk him around and about half the time he'll keep sleeping.

Hmm, I do think you are right and I should set a feed time (i.e. not before 6 hours) since I know he can do it.  I guess I'll use a mix of resettling in the crib and PU/PD.  Oooh, I hope he just gets it from now on (hehe) although I know that's probably unlikely!!

I also think he may have been waking to practice some skills (rocking on his hands and knees and moving around) so the last few days I've made an effort to stay home in the afternoons/shorten DD's activities so that he has some time to practice his moves - and I think that has helped too.

Thanks so much for your help!!

[katie80]

Great update! I do think some OT in these second LOs is often inevitable due to LO #1's activities. Hopefully, if he learns to resettle in the night at non-feeding times, a little OT shouldn't tip him over the edge. It sounds like you've got a great plan.

I also think he may have been waking to practice some skills (rocking on his hands and knees and moving around) so the last few days I've made an effort to stay home in the afternoons/shorten DD's activities so that he has some time to practice his moves - and I think that has helped too.

Ahh, yes, the good old developmental milestones. I forgot to ask about that... there seem to be a lot between 6-12 mo!

I hope this is the beginning of some longer night stretches for you!