10mo extreme sleep dependency, nursing every 2hrs.

[Strumbum]

Hello everyone, I have been reading many topics on 10mo and there NW. I just can seem to find one that fits ALL my issues..
I am hoping to focus on my LOs nursing issues but I will give some backround info.
I co-sleep with my son, always have.. I am a first time mom and thought this was the best for us.
I read BW when he was 6months old and it helped soooo much with getting him down to sleep, although we were already knee deep in AP and have already overcome many hurdles by reading that:)
 We are ready to transition him to his crib now. But first I would like to wean his NW for BF, since he is so dependent is so many ways, i think this is the best to start with then move on to PD in his crib..?
He wakes up every 1.5 to 2 hrs to nurse. Wakes up with eyes closed and he will search for breast while crying.
He will then do a full feed. Yes, I know crazy haha.. most every time. and his diaper becomes soooo full that I also have to change him in the middle of the night still.
He also nurses to sleep with his naps.
At around 5-6am he has been waking up singing/talking for about an hour...
I am curious if he is UT and that is why he wakes so much?
This is his EASY...

Wake up 730-8
E 730
A 730-930
S 930-1030- nurses to sleep
E 1030 snack
A 1030-1230 lunch around noon
S 1230-230- nurses to sleep
E 230 snackk
A 230-5
S 5-6 nap nurses to sleep  (TRYING TO CUT OUT AND KEEP AWAKE TILL 7)
E 6 dinner
A 6- 730 or 8
S 730-8 nurses to sleep down for night

OK so my questions for NW and BF are... Should I just stop him cold turkey? I was planning on refusing the breast from 11-6am.. Giving him a dreamfeed at around 11..
although I put him down and 730 and he wants to nurse at 8, 845, 930,  and then will usually sleep till about 11. I think that BF has become  HUGE prop for him to get back to sleep, as well as our co sleeping.
 Ok. I will start there..  Lots of info! Thanks so much!

[becj86]

I am curious if he is UT and that is why he wakes so much?

Probably so, looking at his EASY - anyway, I think you're dealing with that on General Sleep.

I think you will have to stop feeding at night... he's not going to starve but he will probably not like it and I don't know the logistics of refusing to feed a baby who's sleeping in your bed.

[Strumbum]

Yes, I know that co-sleeping puts a damper on things, but considering I do not want to transition him to his own crib and wean him, all at the same time, I dont want to overwhelm him.

Do you think I should transition him first?
I am aware that the BW method does not suggest co-sleeping, but I am hoping to get some gentle advice on night weaning..and since I do have so many AP that have built up to now I am trying to put the puzzle together.
Anyway, thanks for the input

[Strumbum]

I did read the link that I was sent on the General Sleep Issues Board and it was very helpful. I think it helped alot with the co-sleeping arrangement. So I have an Idea of my plan. Thanks!

[becj86]

Glad you've got a plan. I would be pretty lost in your shoes, I must admit. I think I'd approach it a bit differently getting the routine right, then dealing with props, as I think at least some of the wakings will probably be eliminated just by getting him onto a more suitable day routine.

I wasn't meaning to say co-sleeping is bad or anything. It works well for a lot of people and plenty of BW mums APOP (Accidental Parenting On  Purpose) to get through certain things in their LO's lives. I just don't know how I would physically refuse a feed to a baby if he was lying right beside me, yk?  By that logic, I actually think it would be less confusing for him to not have feeds if he's in his own bed rather than yours.

Best of luck!

[katie80]

I agree with Bec. I'd get the day routine fixed first. He should really be on only 2 naps of 1-1.5 hr each. Then, I'd tackle the night, and I also agree there that I'd work on getting him into his crib first, before cutting out all the feeds.

Here's a thread you might want to read through by a poster with a very similar situation to you. I haven't read it all, but you might find some helpful info in it. http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=228654.0

[Strumbum]

Thanks, that link helped a lot, seems to be a lot of the same issues..
I have been working on his daytime the past 2 days, adding and extra .5hr of A time in the morning and afternoon. so it looks more like this..
800wake up
1030nap
12 wake up
230nap
4-430 wake up.
715 bed time   does this seem like a better EASY to you all?
and he seems to be doing really good with it, a little sleepy but he handles it well.  
He is also taking a lot less time to fall asleep:)
Also I have cut his nursing from about 1130pm to 6 am and he is doing great with that. He seems understandable restless, because he used to a super full tummy all night.. but he settles after about 30min no screaming or anything. I am so proud of him! and he has slept from his 1130 BF to 3am then from 345 w no BF to about 6... that never happens! I then nurse him at 6 then he sleeps till 8.
The reason I decided to wean first is that I am kinda terrified to put him in his crib he is so cuddly so it was kinda a step for him and I. And now when I transition him to crib he can maybe sleep longer stretches without noticing I am not there to nurse him.
anyway just an update of our baby steps and thanks for all the support!

[katie80]

Yes, that EASY is better. It still is anticipating much more night sleep (and total sleep) than average at this age.  After a few days, you'll need to add another 30 min to one or both naps and again, so he's at about 3 hr of A time each.  One can be a bit lower and the other a bit higher, but you need to average that in order to get to a decent bedtime.  With two 1.5 hr naps, you can't expect much more than 11-12 hr of night sleep at this age.

Good progress on the NFs! Ideally you'll want to get him going from 10-11ish at night til morning, but I know you're taking small steps, which is very smart in your situation. 

I think you know this, but when you go to transition him to the crib, it's going to be best if he can fall asleep without nursing, or he will definitely notice that you're not there to nurse him. Have you discussed the process on your other thread at all? I'm assuming you'll do it gradually, by sleeping with him in his room first and then slowly getting him into the crib?

Keep up the good work!

[Karinabeena]

I'm just following along with this string, and wanted to say that we were in this exact situation a few months ago, so I can totally sympathize.

We moved our LO, whom with we coslept and who nursed every 1.5 hours, to his crib when he was 5 months old. It was hard -- perhaps more so for me, because there is such an emotional side to cosleeping -- but it improved everyone's sleep so much. We were dealing with a much younger baby who needed to be fed more often at night, but we decided to tackled everything at once: we slowly transitioned him into his crib, cut down on his night feeds, and dealt with his dependency on nursing to fall asleep. The first three nights I slept with him on a mattress on the ground in his room, to get him used to his new surroundings. The next night, we put him in his crib and my DH started PU/PDs (the board for this helped a lot) and he slept in LO's room with him on the ground next to the crib. I would go in every 3 hours (or whatever wake-up was closest to the 3-hour mark) and nurse him, then we stretched it to every 4 hours, and so on, so that it wouldnt be such a shock to him. (I know what you mean about the full diapers after all-night nursing!!) It took about 3 weeks (and a REALLY bad regression), but we did it (!!!) and now he falls asleep independently (babbles himself to sleep) and doesn't wake nearly as often to nurse. Naps were challenging, but we did them too. Most days I would try for one nap in the crib and then take him out in the stroller for the second nap (they were too exhausting for me to do two a day!). Now he does both naps in his crib -- it's actually where he sleeps best!
Hope that helps in some way. Again, I sympathize with what you're going through!

[Strumbum]

I want to thank you all for your support, Parenting can be so trying and it is nice to have some good people to talk to about it all:)
Karinabeena
, thanks for the similar story, nice to relate to somebody. It gives me hope this will all work out.!

Have you discussed the process on your other thread at all? I'm assuming you'll do it gradually, by sleeping with him in his room first and then slowly getting him into the crib?

I am going to discuss it on the other thread, as my next mission when I feel this is going well will be PD. I know I will need alot of advice on that. I am scared to start haha.. I think its going to be terrible, but maybe it will go better than I expect. (hopefully)
I was going to transition him to his own room, yes. But the way our house is set up, the walls do not go to the ceiling and lots of windows. So we have alot of light in that room, almost impossible to get dark. SOOO I think I might leave him in our room but in his crib...
Which leads me to this question.. Is it better to have them in their own room? and if so why? If he is in his crib in our room till we somehow remedy that, will he not sleep well?

[becj86]

DS sleeps in broad daylight fine during the day. Its about what they get used to, IME.

Is it better to have them in their own room? and if so why?

I found it easier while sleep training because it took me longer to respond (5 sec instead of 2) and often he'd resettled or I'd heard that it was a mantra cry rather than "I need you mummy!".

If he is in his crib in our room till we somehow remedy that, will he not sleep well?

Just as you can be disturbed by his movement, noises, etc. he can be disturbed by yours. It is recommended that LO's sleep in the same room til 12 months though for SIDS - something to do with LO's forgetting to breathe and your breathing reminding them. DS is just across the hall, so we still hear him and him us... Your choice at the end of the day.

[Strumbum]

Alright thanks so much.
Also, Last night did not go so well. I am wondering a few things with his NW's.
If I nurse him from 730-11pm and then again in the am. Is this confusing for him in the middle of the night? Does he think I am just holding back or do they get used to a schedule internally?
Same question with the dreamfeed. Should I only be nursing him once when I put him down? He ALWAYS wakes up about 2-3 times by 11 to nurse

[katie80]

There is usually a regression when you change something up on a LO.  I'm guessing that's what happened last night.  They put up a bit of a fuss to see if this is truly the way things are going from now on.  As long as you stay consistent, he should go back to settling better without feeding.

I've never really had to deal with dropping so many NFs, but if I were you I'd stick with the ones you have planned and no others.  I'm assuming that's a BT feed, a DF, and then in the am.  The BT feed would be before he's actually asleep, so that shouldn't be a problem.  I would try to do the DF as a true DF, i.e. not upon him waking, or that could get a bit confusing I would think.  And then use some other means of settling him til morning.  You may want to sneak in a feeding or two during the day so he's getting the nursing time he wants, and so that you're more confident in not feeding him at night.  Part of him always waking up to nurse is that he just doesn't know how else to get himself to sleep and his routine is a bit off (i.e. he hasn't been tired enough to sleep through before).  Keep settling him without nursing and I think he will make good progress.