10 Months old, NW and Gradual Withdrawl problems

[sarabande]

Allen will be 10 months old in a few days and we're still struggling with multiple night wakings.  About 1.5 months ago, I used pupd to get him down to 2 nw and nursings.  He would sleep from about 8:00-7:00am.  He would wake at midnight and 4:30 to nurse, and do a full feeding session.  Then I decided to slowly decrease the amount of time I nursed him at the 4:30 session.  As that session gets small and smaller, he's waking up more and more.  I try not to nurse before its been 4.5 hours since the last feeding, since that's what he does during the day.  However, I frequently have to spend up to an hour or more each night to make it to that point after the first nw.  I'll go in, pick him up for a quick snuggle, lay him down and hand him his lovie.  He'll sleep for 10 minutes, then start crying again. 

His easy during the day his fine.  He usually has about a 3hr15min A time, 2 naps of 1.5 hours, nurses 4 times, and solids 3-4 times.  I don't think he's ready to start dropping the 2nd nap.

Any help is appreciated.  I'm almost at the point where I'll go spend the night somewhere else and let dh handle letting him CIO, even thought I hate the thought of that.

[Bex09]

Hugs hun, I know how hard NW are and trust me you can sort this without resorting to CIO. So please, please don't go down that road. All that will do is make your DS lose trust in you and leave you both feeling miserable.

At 10 mo you are right that your DS doesn't really need that feed, but is probably just waking for it from habit. It sounds like you are doing exactly the right thing to reduce the NF so stick with it. I do wonder if these NW are happening more frequently due to your DS needing a push in A time. Most 10 mo would be on around 4 hrs of A time. So maybe you could start by adding just 10 or 15 mins every couple of days and see if that helps. What do you think? If he is awake more in the day it can often help at this age to make them more sleepy at night yk?

[sarabande]

I'll try pushing the A time.  So far today, here's our easy:
A - 7:30
E - 8:00 - nurse, solids
S - 11:00 - 1:00 (I woke him at this point, so the day wouldn't be completely messed up.  He was up really late last night, so I let him sleep a little more than usual.
EA - 1:00 - nurse, solids
E - 3:30 - snack
S - 4:15

I know yesterday's naps were a little different than normal.  DH was in charge while I was working and his easy got off track.  Maybe that's why last night was extra hard.

[Bex09]

How long did he sleep for at 4.30? Then what time was BT?

That longer morning A time of 3.5 hrs was fine wasn't it? Because you still got a long nap after so your DS wasn't OT. I would aim for that again tomorrow and then maybe add another 15 mins after a few days.

[sarabande]

The 4:15 nap was 1hr, I woke him to protect bedtime. Bedtime was 8:30. So he ended up with a times of 3.5, 3.25, and 3.25. That was just following his cues. Should I just keep it the same for a few days, then add 15 min to all a times?

Now that I think about timing, the nws started getting worse about the same time dh started being in charge during the day. In addition to putting him down for nap after only 3hrs, dh has been giving Allen a paci. Allen had given that up on his own a few months ago, I don't know why dh was giving it. Im going to ban the paci again.

Here's hoping the two changes make for a better night!

[Bex09]

Hi there, how was your night? Yes I would aim for those A times again and then add an extra 15 mins to all A times. You will probably need to cap the naps to keep your day from being too long though, like you did yesterday.

Can DS replug his own paci? If he can then it shouldn't really be a problem for sleep. HTHs.

[sarabande]

Last nigt was much better. He went down for the night at 8:30. Nw1 was at 11:00, and I was able to quickly resettle him. Nw2 at 1:00 and I nursed for a full session. Nw3 at 5:00 and I limited that nursing session. Then he ew at 6:00.  So not perfect but much improved.

He can replug the paci himself, however he doesn't seem to be able to find it in the middle of the night. I would rather he chew on his lovie to soothe, since he can find that on his own.

[Bex09]

Well that is good that there was an improvement, seems like the increased A times is the way to go. I would try again today with those A times and see how you go tonight. You can maybe try increasing them again tomorrow then. How are you resettling him when he wakes? Did you say you were using PU/PD or did I make that up?!

With the paci, we put loads all around our DD in the cot so she could always find one when she needed it! She still ha about 5 in her cot now! Worked a treat though. Or could you attach it to his lovey in some way if he can always find that?

[sarabande]

Well last night was terrible.  We had 6 nws.  Here's yesterdays easy:
EA - 6:00 (this was an ew.  Only 9.5 hrs overnight sleep)
S - 9:30 (nap lasted 1 hr 55 min)
EA - 11:25
S - 2:30 (nap lasted 1 hr 21 min.  I didn't cap due to the ew)
EA - 3:55
E - 7:20
S - 7:50

Then the nws started:
NW1 - 10:45 - resettled himself
NW2 - 11:30 - Full nursing session
NW3 - 2:00 - brief pupd
NW4 - 3:15 - brief pupd
NW5 - 4:00 - limited nursing session
NW6 - 5:50 - brief pupd
UP for the day at 6:50.

I know his last A time yesterday was long - almost 4 hours.  Do you think that's what caused the rough night?  I didn't intentionally try for that long of an A.  He just wasn't showing sleepy signs, then took a long time to wind down in his crib.

As far as how I resettle during the night - When I go in, first I just try to talk to him to resettle, which sometimes works.  If it doesn't, I pick him up for a brief snuggle.  He usually starts squirming and fighting me pretty quickly, so I lay him back down.  He'll then grab his lovie or a paci.  I then talk to him and rub his back if he's crying.  Last night, each time I had to help him resettle, it only took a few minutes.

[Bex09]

It could have been that the last A time was a bit long. I also think that maybe the PU and NF when he NW is a bit of a prop. At this age you don't really PU but try to calm with your voice and just PD if needed. I would also maybe have a set time that you won't feed before. DS should really be able to go at least 5 or 6 hours between feeds at night and therefore only have one NF. So maybe if he feeds at 7pm you could hold him off until 12 or 1 and then not feed again until the morning. What do you think?

Have you tried capping both naps at 1.5 hrs or some other balance of no more than 3hrs daytime sleep? I wonder if your DS is also getting a little too much DT sleep.

[sarabande]

Well, we're still hanging in and trying to get rid of the nws.  DH has started trying to take care of the first nw, which usually happens around 10:30 and then I handle the rest.  Last night, we had 4 total nw, and I nursed for 2.  In a few days, I'm going to go cold turkey on the 2nd nursing session, that I've been gradually trying to withdraw.

I have a question about Allen's overall easy.  If I should respost it in the easy forum, I can.  I was looking at the "Typical amounts of day and night sleep" page, and that says Allen should be getting between 11-12 hours of sleep overnight.  However, with the amount of a time he's getting, I'm not sure how.  I've gotten him on 3.5 A time, for 3 sessions.  That makes 10.5 hours of A a day.  Then add 3 hours of nap, that makes 13.5 hours during the day.  Therefore, he only sleeps 10.5 hours total overnight.  If he seems happy and can make the full first a, do I just leave it alone?  Do I need to cut something out of the day to make the night longer?

Yesterday's easy went:
A,E - 6:15 (3.5 hr A)
S - 9:45 (2 hrs total)
A, E - 11:45 (3hr 45 min a)
S - 3:30 (1 hr, I woke to cap daytime sleep)
A,E - 4:30 (3 hr 20 min for last A)
E - 7:30
S - 7:50

[sarabande]

Another thought - could the fact that sometimes I nurse him and sometimes do not be confusing him?  Could that be contributing to the continued multiple nws?

[Bex09]

Essentially what is happening is that you are heading towards the 2:1 transition. So to fit everything into a 12 hr day you have to start capping naps. It doesn't mean your DS will be ready for 1 nap for some time yet as the nap capping and extending A times can go on for a while. We started at 9 mo and my DD was on 1 nap by 12 mo.

Your daytime EASY depends to an extent on how long a night your DS is doing. If he will do a 12 hr night then a 12 hr day is obviously perfect. At this age my DD was only doing 11 hr nights though, so her days were 13 hrs. Does DS always tend to do 10.5 hr nights? So the idea is that as you cap naps you can make the next A time shorter as LO will be more tired after a shorter nap yk? So you can either cap the am or the pm nap. The way your Easy looks you are capping the pm nap, which is fine if that works for you and DS. So your easy might go something like...

Wu 6.30
A time 3.5 hrs
Nap 10.00-12.00
A time 3.5 hrs
Nap 3.30- 4.30
A time 3 hrs
BT 7.30

Then as the A time lengthens you can shorten the second nap and pull BT earlier if needed. Does that make sense? How was your night after the easy you posted?

I do think that your NF and PU are partly causing NW as they are a prop. I think cutting one is the way to go. It won't confuse DS that you feed at some NW and not others as long as you are consistent and only feed after a certain time. Feeding before he is hungry just to settle him back to sleep will make him think he needs a feed at each NW to resettle.

[sarabande]

Last night was fairly typical.  He nursed at 7:20, then asleep at 7:50.  THen we had:
NW1 - 10:15 - dh went into resettle.  Took 30 min.  DH was trying to rock him to sleep.  I will tell him the other ways to resettle.
NW2 - 11:30 - Nursed
NW3 - 3:00ish - don't remeber exact time.  Just talked to him and rubbed his head a minute, he quickly resettled.
NW4 - 5:00 - limited nursing.
7:00 - up for the day.

Allen has tended towards 10.5 - 11 hrs of overnight sleep for the last few months.  So since that's what he does on his own, I should just balance a time and naps during the day to make sure he has that much time at night, correct?

Tonight dh and I are going out on a date, so Allen will spend the first part of the night at my sister's house.  I don't think tonight will be the best night to make any changes.  So tomorrow night, I'll bite the bullet - no nursing before 5 hrs elapsed and completely eliminate the 2nd nursing.  I'll get dh to help resettle other times, since he won't have the association there with nursing to sleep. 

In addition to just wanting more sleep for myself, we're going to the beach in a few weeks with his grandparents and cousins.  I would like to have the nws fixed before then, so he doesn't keep the whole house awake.  I know travel will disrupt everything, but I want to try to keep it to a minimum.

I really appreciate your help!  It's very reassuring to have someone to talk to about all of this.  All of my friends and family are just telling me to let him cio.  I know it worked for thier families, but to me it just feels wrong.

[Bex09]

No problem and I am so glad that you don't want to let your DS CIO, it is really not the BW way, Tracy was totally against it.

If DS tends to do 10.5- 11 hrs then yes you could try to go for a 13 hr day. Some people find that a 12 hr day leads to a 12 hr night though, it really depends on what works for your LO. You could maybe try pushing that first A time out by 15 mins again now too, to 3h 45. Often a longer first A time can extend nights by getting a later wu time and help with NW too.

Your plan to get DH involved in resettling at night sounds good. You could maybe just try to avoid any other AP like rocking, cuddling, etc and use shush/pat or PD. Just bear in mind there will be crying because you are changing things but you are not abandoning DS to cry on his own, you or DH are right there and he will know that. Here to hold your hand all the way.