help with EASY - lengthening A and stopping CN at nursery

[sleepygirl79]

Hi, I posted before and got lots of help for my spirited LO who would not sleep. She is now on EASY and things are much better. She is 8 and a half months now. I'm struggling with extending her A times from 2h 45min and getting rid if the CN. Since trying, her naps have gone awry (from 1.5 hrs to 30 mins, usually can get her back to sleep) nights are much harder to get her to sleep...wakes everytime I put her down - takes me 2-3hrs, till I give up and bf to sleep. I still shh pat to sleep, with some rocking. as I'm going back to work in a few weeks, I would really like to sort it out. Still wakes twice at night for feeds (ebf, trying to get her to take cup but thats another story). I think my Easy needs adjusting, and I'm letting her fall asleep feeding at night, which is affecting her sleep and timings.

My prev EASY was:

E 7am.  Wake and bf
A 730.    Crawl around cot and pulls to stand
    8.        Breakfast - toast and cereal, fruit
S. 945 - 11 ish   Nap
E.  1130 bf (dropped now, trying cup of ebf, snack)
A  crawls, plays
     1230 lunch meat/fish/egg with veg and some carb
               Fruit
S.  1345 nap (cant usually manage more than 40 mins)
A.   Play
E.    330 bf
A.    Play
S.    515 cn till 545

E.    Dinner (as lunch)
A.    645Bath, play in cot
E.     730B
 A.    Brush teeth, story
S.      815 sleep

Whatever I did, I could not get her to sleep before 830 to 9, not sure why. She just keeps waking up.

Currently, I've been extending A times to 3hrs and therefore earlier bt and stopping cb, but really not working.
Hubby is getting v worried and frustrated.
To add to everything, there's the teething (not actively now), crawling, standing, and screaming when she wakes after bedtime unless I go to her, then stops immediately. As I'm going back to shift work this may be a problem!

Help!

[sleepygirl79]

Sorry 730 pm was breastfeed and later, I meant stopping cn (for catnap) not cb.

[jessmum46]

Hi sleepygirl79   Hugs!  Sounds like a tough time for you all at the moment.

Sounds to me like you need to get rid of that CN - most LOs will be on 2 naps by this age. 

When you say you're having trouble extending past 2h45 what do you mean?  Is it that DD is falling asleep or just grumpy?  My LO is 6 months and I've recently learned to ignore her "sleepy cues" as if I put her down too early we just get UT naps.  Sleep cues get more unreliable as they get older and can just be a sign of boredom or just that they are used to going to sleep at that time of day.

How does she wake from naps?  Is she happy or grumpy?  I wonder if you're in an UT/OT loop?

That 1h15 nap first thing looks a bit UT, then I guess after a 40 min second nap and a CN she is OT by bedtime.  What do you think?  The day is quite long is she wakes up at 7am and isn't asleep until 8.30-9pm.  Could you try pushing out the first A to balance the day, ditching the CN and going for super early bedtime for a few days?  You may have to change things slowly if she's spirited but you know your LO best and what she can handle.

Is that any help?

[sleepygirl79]

Hi, thanks Hon. Thats a great help. I suspect that I am on an ut/ot loop as well. When we started easy and she got the hang of her naps age 6 months, she woke up happy after 2 hr naps, but its gradually got to a stage of shorter naps and grumpy wakings. She seems to be closing her eyes while playing in the evening, but in the morning she has her usual sleep cues and grumpiness. Should I push out just the first A gradually (?5mins every 3days) and stop the CN altogether?
Thanks.

[jessmum46]

Sounds like a good plan to me   You don't have to drop the CN completely if you get a day of short naps - can always offer it once in a while if you need to.  If it's a choice between early bedtime and CN though I'd go with EBT - it won't be forever.  I found doing very low key A was helpful when trying to stretch - we'd just go for a walk round the garden with me pointing things out for the last 15 mins or so before putting her down x

[sleepygirl79]

I've got a problem. I'm going back to work 3 days a week in august and we had a setlong in day at nursery today. Dd will have to follow their routine unfortunately, wgich is a weird 845 nap for half hour then 1200 nap for an hour and a half, plus possible CN at 4 depending on second nap. How on earth thi s will work, I don't know.
In the meanwhile, I can't get her to settle for the night at all. Naps are still 40 mins, goes back to sleep in my arms when I try to resettle, then wakes the minute I put her down. The nights are terrible. I'm trying earlier BT as she's exhausted the whole time, but I just can't put her down in the cot - she sleeps in my arms then wakes immediately when I put her down. This is what she was like before I started EASY! Ages waking more at night as well. Basically won't go down till about 9, wakes 40 mins later, then I feed eventually, wakes at midnight, then feeds, wakes 2hrs after I put her down, then feeds, wakes at 6am. I try not to feed but am so exhausted myself. She is teething now, crawling, standing so maybe developmental? How will I cope when I'm back at work?
She's still not an independent sleeper, but can I attempt sorting that while she's so tired?
Sorry...getting desperate.

[jessmum46]

((((((Hugs))))))  Sounds like you're having it really really tough at the moment. 

OK here are my thoughts....

(1) She's really really overtired from the broken sleep and short naps
(2) She (as you said) isn't an independent sleeper yet....I think the shh/pat/rocking/BF have become props for her   Has she ever settled herself to sleep without your help?
(3) She's going to need a shift in routine very soon to fit in with daycare - are they not flexible at all about this?
(4) Plus she's got a lot going on developmentally

Poor LO and poor Mummy!!  Have you got anyone around who can give you a break for a bit?

It's really up to you which order you tackle these in as you know your LO best.  You could try getting her into the daycare routine first, then tackling the independent sleep issue, or you could just go for it all at once.  In some ways she's so overtired anyway you've got nothing to lose by just going for it    What do you think?  Could you do a day or two of sleeps all on you if necessary to catch you both up with rest, and then you'll both be in a better place to tackle things?  I'm guessing if she's spirited she doesn't handle OT very well.....

Have you tried PU/PD to teach her to settle?  I've not really used it so not in a position to offer advice - maybe have a look on the PUPD board or someone else may be able to join in here?  The only thing I can say is that whatever you choose to do, you have to be completely consistent for all naps, bedtime and night wakings and not cave in and go back to rocking/feeding.................(((((hugs))))) it is so tough - if you can get someone else to take turns with you (I think Tracy in her book said swap every 2 days) then that might help you keep going.

Keep posting and hopefully someone else will come in with help too.  I'll keep following along for support, let us know how you're doing x

[sleepygirl79]

Hi,
Thanks for your reply. It's all been a bit crazy. We started settling in now. Sending her to nursery is hard - she cries loudly when I leave. I'm in tears after leaving. But she's quite happy after I'm gone.They're very nice but th ey don't seem very flexible about naps, as they want to keep things similar for all the LOs (understandable). I can talk to her again though. She's read the baby whisperer books.

she is now feeding for longer overnight (ebf, won't take a bottle, sometimes I feel like I've failed her - can't take a bottle, won't STTN, I should have postponed work, its so difficult for her). I didnt want to do everything together because I wasn't sure if some wakings are hunger and thirst from missing her feeds in the day. But I'm concerned about getting her in the habit of just catching up at night. It's going to be hard when I start work next week.
however on the plus side, she is now easier to put to sleep. I think she naps better for them and they're managing to teach her some independent sleep - she is placed on a mat, with her keyworker placing a hand on her, and picked up if too upset, but sparently settles quite quickly.

I think I'll find it hard to commit to pu/pd as a part of me feels like its my fault I didn't mdnsge to teach her to sleep independently yet or use the bottle, and I feel bad that she cries when she leaves me. I may wait a week or so till things have settled. Or will she have developed a habit of night feeding by then?

I wish I got the BW book earlier. I feel like a terrible mother.

[sleepygirl79]

Ok sorry...deep breath...I was in a tired, overemotional state when I wrote the above. It's all a bit overwhelming. But we have come a long way from waking every 40 mins and sleeping in my arms day and night!

1. You're right...she's overtired. We were both ill last week as well, so I basically let her bf a lot and sleep in my arms to catch up. I think that has slightly improved things.

2. not independent sleeper, wakes a few times at night. I try to get her back to sleep without feeding. Except ON, she doesn't really feed to sleep much anymore. Rocking/ssh/pat are props. I previously posted on the props thread and was advised to take a gradual approach - it worked, but I'm stuck at the last hurdle of stopping the props altogether. It takes 6 mins to get her to fall asleep when not ot/ut etc. She sometimes let's me put her in the cot and ssh her to sleep now...need to do it consistently and not give in.

3. I'll speak to daycare, but if its quite rigid, I'll follow their routine at home?

4. Developmental - can't do anything about this

5. With Laila not taking a bottle, she just delays one feed from 330 to 530. I feed her 7, 530/6 for an hr, solids, bath, 7 bf till 8. She wakes about 9 and goes back down easily (rocking) then wakes midnight, 0330, 530 (630-7 wake up time). With the fact that she's compensating for less daytime milk mean I should allow hee to cont feeds at night? I'm worried about dehydration in this heat. What's normal?
once I decide that, I can work on her sleeping independently.

I shouldn't get into poor baby syndrome...she's fine after I've left and has fun at nursery. I'll check out the PU/PD forum.

Thank you, x

[jessmum46]

No apologies needed!!  You are NOT a terrible mother - it is SO hard sometimes (have lost count of the number of days I've cried...) and it sounds like you have made some GREAT progress with settling - 6 minutes is brilliant!  If she will let you shh her in the cot too that is great!  And as for feeling bad when she cries when you leave - that tells me you are most definitely a loving caring Mummy

My LO is EBF and won't take a bottle either so you have my sympathy there.  It's really common for LOs to wait until they are back with Mummy to catch up with feeds.  Just as a thought - has she ever tried a cup?  Could you express and leave some milk with daycare?  Or will she take water during the day to put your mind at rest about dehydration?

With feeds at night, it's entirely up to you.  If you are happy with the 2 feeds then it isn't a problem   Or you could try something gradual like only offering one side, or gradually cutting the number of minutes you let her feed for, or setting a time you won't feed before (say 6h from last feed, then gradually extend it), or offer water instead?

(((((((((Hugs)))))))) and lots of luck - this WILL pass and you are doing a fab job xx

[sleepygirl79]

Thank you hon. It's good to know I'm not alone here.

My LO drinks water from a sippy very well. Just not keen on any form of milk. Tried ebm and formula. she has drunk an ounce of milk from a cup several times, so we're persisting. I did get some advice on the bottle feeding section...sorry to have put all that down here too. Was just feeling hopeless, but I feel better now. She wasn't taking expressed milk either, and they're not familiar with dealing with breast milk, so we're trying formula now. Maybe u should try ebm again.

I think i'll carry on night feeds as they are till shes settled in a bit, then start cutting down.

Thank you for your kind words and encouragement..much appreciated. X

[jessmum46]

Hi sleepygirl, just checking in to see how it's going?