6.75mth never ending NW and they are getting worse!

[becj86]

Not 100% sure what APOP means? Does hold to sleep mean to start before he wakes?

APOP = accidental parenting on purpose, so choose a prop and use that to get some sleep into him. Hold to sleep, hold him til he goes to sleep and then put him down

The waking times are always around the same times too...can this mean something?

Could be hunger or habitual - habitual tend to be within about 5min and hunger tends to be more variable. Could be pain if its when the meds wear off...

How much milk/solids is your LO taking in a day? Has milk intake dropped since solids started? Has number of wakings and requirement for feeds at night increased since introducing solids?
Do you notice any gas/reflux symptoms?

[tel33015]

Morning,

Little man slept great last night until about 4am once again and he did not go back into a deep sleep until 5:15am. I did not give meds last night. I sat just with my hand on his back and it looked like he was drifting in and out of sleep. He started to fuss and after about 45 mins I gave him meds (I think I might try the dream med again tomorrow morning). Then the same drifting in and out and squirming about...anyway in the end I gave him a bottle and he drank 4 ounces, so I guess no super hungry but then he went to sleep for until 6:45am.

The 5am bottle might becoming a habit? But I understand that after being awake so long he usually skulls it so like you have said before he is not hungry when wakes but too hungry to go back to sleep? His usual bottle at 7 is pretty much a non event, might drink 40 mls or so.

The paed really did not say much other than "this is normal for his age"  Could be teething, could just be wanting parents etc etc...

DS does not drink much formula, he really never has. Since transitioned from BM (around 4.5 months) I would struggle to get him to drink 5 ounces every 4 hours. Maybe the 7pm bottle he would drink 6 ounces because I figured he was catching up. The NW/EW were happening as far back as then and I started 1 meal to see if it would help, I thought he might just be hungry for something abit more than milk. it was around 5.5-6 mths anyway. Did not help to be honest...the NW have only got worse hence the reason for my post.

Now he drinks maybe 4-5 bottles and of those bottles probably drinks 20-25ounces per day I reckon. The milk intake since solids is probably about the same, maybe a little less but not much. I give him fruit in the morning, the little 110g heinz fruit jars.  He has vegies for lunch, maybe 6-7 icecubes. He eats it all. Has vegies for dinner and the same 6-7 icecubes and eats it all.

The food range is not great, rice cereal seemed to unsettle him so he has fruit (apple/pear/banana), potato, pumpkin, sweet potato, carrot,  squash, brocolli (every other day), meat (couple times a week). Thats about it. Drinks water.

Like I said the NW are worse with the more solids I have given him. The have changed from just resettle NW to being awake for long periods of time. Since these long NW he never had a bottle before 7. Had a DF at 10:30ish and then at 7 he would not even finish it...confusing really.

I don't really notice any reflux problems. I considered it being gas as he seems to squirm a little and he used to do that when a tiny bub. He does pass wind a bit when I am patting so maybe its wind pain?

Sorry for the full food/milk breakdown...fingers just kept typing 

Thanks becj86

[becj86]

Have you tried a faster teat on the bottle to see if he'll take more milk that way?

Would you be comfortable cutting back the solids (only meant to be tasting and fun at this age anyway - milk the main nutrition source til 12 months) and seeing if that helps increase his milk intake? Here's some info: Amount of Formula/Bottles/BFs when having Solids

Does he have any other signs of food intolerance? Does my LO have food intolerances?

DS did well when I offered milk in a sippy with his solids instead of water...

[tel33015]

I actually cut back his lunch a bit today, was thinking that maybe it was a bit too much food. I will do the same with dinner as well and see how that goes and see if he drinks more.

Having a food tolerance has definitely crossed our minds. I read the link you provided and bub certainly has the fussiness symptoms. No spewing or loose poos or anything. I am not sure what food I could eliminate as he has no wheat or dairy (other than formula) at the moment so I might actually try a lactose intolerant formula...what you think?

[tel33015]

Hello again....just to add to my previous post....DS pm naps are starting to get shorter, so does this mean I need to start increasing his A time? Only over the past week or so this has started and I have been so focused on the NW that I really did not think about it much. Not sure if it would add to the NW??

He was sleeping 2hrs then it started to go down to 1.5 hrs and now its seems between 1-1.15hrs...today 1hr and woke crying. Yesterday 1.5 hrs but his A time was almost 3hr20min due to dr appoint. Prior days its around 1-1.15hrs max. I have been shortening the last A time to compensate so only doing around 2.5hr-2.45hr A time in evening. That sound ok?

[becj86]

He was sleeping 2hrs then it started to go down to 1.5 hrs and now its seems between 1-1.15hrs...today 1hr and woke crying. Yesterday 1.5 hrs but his A time was almost 3hr20min due to dr appoint. Prior days its around 1-1.15hrs max. I have been shortening the last A time to compensate so only doing around 2.5hr-2.45hr A time in evening. That sound ok?

What's the day look like then? Do you need to be having a shorter nap to keep the day to 13hr max?

I am not sure what food I could eliminate as he has no wheat or dairy (other than formula) at the moment so I might actually try a lactose intolerant formula...what you think?

Lactose intolerance is incredibly rare in babies Probably more likely to help if you look to a formula with the cows milk protein broken down further - hypoallergenic formula I think they call it. Having said that, was he getting dairy through your milk when you BF'd him early on? Did the issues start before or after you weaned BF to formula?

[tel33015]

Morning,

Well it was a 3am get up this morning and everything escalated quite quickly to crying/screaming. The only time he has done that before was when he was hungry so gave bottle, drank all 5 ounces and then went back to sleep until 6:20am. I tried to settle but would not have a bar of it this morning. So it was only an awake time of 30 mins which is a massive improvement on all the other nights!

Does not make sense that he used to go through the whole night just fine??? I am confused on this one as the only thing that seems to settle him eventually is a bottle? Maybe this has become my APOP? Hold to sleep does not work,  he just squirms and does not relax at all.

Our days at the moment look like:

(3-5:30am somewhere in here long NW and bottle...)

6:00am wake (sometimes upto 6:30 so would just adjust times if later wakeup)
7:30 - offer bottle but might only have 2 ounces due to earlier bottle
8:30 fruit
9:00am sleep for 2.15 hrs
11:15am awake
11:30am bottle - usually drinks 4-5 ounces tops
12:30-1pm lunch - vegies
2:15pm sleep and like I mentioned, only getting 1-1.15hrs on this sleep with 3hr A time
3:15-3:30pm wake
3:30pm - bottle/vegies.....
(trying to drop this bottle here, will really follow his cues on this one. lately he has been fussing and so we offer bottle and he drinks around 5 ounces...this effects the bottle before bed, he hardly drinks any, maybe 2 ounces. Maybe just have to give dinner super early so we can get him to drink his bedtime bottle??

6:00-6:15 bath/bottle/bed.....have been having to do the EBT to compensate for the shorter pm sleep. Catnap has not worked lately....

DF 10-10:30pm.

Should I cut his am sleep to 2hrs or less? SHould I try extending past 3 hours?

In regards to the formula...I will certainly look into the HA formula, maybe this has been his problem all along and solids has just made it worse?
He is currently on S-26 and they don't offer that so might have to change brands.
Yes he was getting dairy from my milk when BFing. He was a windy/colicky baby, all my kids were. His sleeping was very interrupted and became solid sleeps and few NW around the 3/4 months mark as its supposed to, also transitioned to formula.

Sorry, another novel  Thanks for all your advice becj86.

[becj86]

You may find that increasing that second A time to 3hr15 will yield you a longer nap - I'd give that a go for sure. I'd leave that first, I don't think its causing any major issues here.

He's really not drinking a lot of milk in a 24hr period, I will see if I can got someone who knows a little more about bottle feeding to have a look. Does he have any specific behaviours associated with feeding/refusing any further milk? Have you tried a slower/faster teat on the bottle to see if that helps him take more? Have you tried feeding him his milk as soon as he wakes so he's still drowsy - that may help him take a bit more?

[Lindsay27]

My LOs formula intake dropped when I started solids too, so I cut back and it helped.  I noticed that you said that you give 6-7 cubes for lunch and dinner, and I think this might be your culprit for low milk intake.  I would consider cutting way back and see if that helps. 

This is what we do:

Breakfast - 2 cubes fruit, 2 tbls cereal
Lunch - 2 cubes veggies, 1 cube fruit
Dinner - 2 cubes veggies, 1 cube meat OR 3 cubes veggies.  The odd time I add 1 cube fruit for "dessert"

If I offered him more solids, he would absolutely eat it...he would eat solids forever if I let him, but I have to manage his intake so he still does well with bottles.  Since cutting back he takes 6oz bottles every 4/4.5 hours and usually a 7oz or 8oz before bed.  He also gets a 5oz NF. 

Just wanted to share our experience, hope it helps

[tel33015]

Not really sure what you mean about the specific behaviours...but no, he either wants it or he just gets cranky when keep trying to offer it and turns his head. Not sure if this because its coming out too slow and gets frustrated with it. I am going to get a faster flow teat today and see if that helps. Will let you know on that one.

We have found that he takes less after waking. We usually leave it for 15 mins or so before we offer bottle. If he does not drink much of earlier bottle and he is hungry, he makes it very obvious  but this is really the only instance when he drinks all of his bottle straight from waking.

I was actually concerned with the lack of milk at around the 5 month mark (after transition to formula)...I spoke to a childhood nurse and they were not overly concerned because his birth weight was fine and was generally happy. Then the NW/EW started and thought maybe not interested in more milk so started solids a few weeks later.

Thanks for sharing Lindsay27, appreciate it  I started cutting back solids yesterday but I think I need to cut back even more. It really makes sense. Like your LO, he practically gags while giving him solids, he would just keep eating it Hopefully he starts to drink more along with a faster teat!

[mrssat]

Hi there,
Just wanted to pop in about the milk intake....my LO had really dropped his milk intake and it was definitely due to too much solids. Like your boy he was chomping the stuff down, I though it was great then he stopped taking his bottles. I posted in the soild food section and got great advice. I completely cut out lunch and just gave breakie and dinner (about 3 cubes, I do spoonfuls) he then started to take his normal 6 ozs every 4 hrs and 7/8 at bed with a DF of 5oz. He sometimes leaves a bit in his 11am feed, but is taking most of the other bots fine. I will reintroduce lunch when he is more ready. I sometimes give him a cucumber stick or something so he doesn't feel left out at lunch and this is great when he is teething (which he always seems to be).
He has never taken huge amounts of milk, but he cut right back to about 20oz in a day and at this young age I thought it wasnt right.
I did try faster and slower teats, this didnt make a difference it was defo the solids that was causing it.

Glad you are getting a bit more rest, we are to. He has given us 2 great nights! Hope this is a sign of things to come!

[tel33015]

Hello,

Thanks mrssat for you thoughts and encouragement  I actually had a little bit of a look around in the solid food section yesterday and saw your post. Great advice....

Well I am trying everything all at once at the moment! Trying a HA formula to see if long NW are due to gas/wind pain. Also got some faster teats and also cutting back solids.

So far he seems to be drinking more, drank 5 ounces at 7pm last night and again at 10:30pm.....BUT...he woke at 2am and was on/off..winging for about an hour. Decided to try a bottle at 3am, drank all of the 5 ounces and then went back to sleep until 6:45am. Not sure if he woke due to hunger or wind/teeth pain and then got hungry after being awake for so long. No crying and looked like he was trying to go to sleep, maybe dozed and then woke again. I did sit for a while and watched.

Is this am bottle due to hunger or habit now? Or just comforting because he is pain? When he was young and had bad wind/colic a bottle always settled for some reason so maybe it could be that but not sure why its only just started? Its really hard to know isn't it. He did not need meds to settle back to sleep anyway.

He drank another 5 ounces at 7:30 and then another 5 ounces at 12...so I think the teat and cutting back might actually be helping. This means 6 bottles a day...isn't that too much? Hopefully he drinks at least 5 every bottle and maybe the early am bottle won't be needed. Does not explain why he is not going back to sleep for such a long time.

Might have to see how things go for the next week and see if they improve??

[tel33015]

Hello again, just thought I would share our progress!

The last two nights have been great, only had to get up once and he went straight back to sleep. Last night was the first in months that he has slept straight through until 6:00am.

Not sure if its the change in formula has  helped but think I will stick with this from now on, its certainly not making him worse and has all the same goodness so why not.

I hope this continues, fingers crossed. The milk intake has not improved as much as I would like but thats probably a post in the solids/milk intake section.

Thanks again for all your advice and support.

[becj86]

Maybe the intake level is fine and it was just discomfort from the proteins... glad your nights are improved