7.5 Month Old, Starting to NW?! Teeth? Anxiety? Tummy? HELP :(

[mama04]

I am new to this forum and looking for some advise. My son is 7.5 months old. Breastfed, started solids (baby led weaning). He used to sleep from 6:45pm, dream feed at 10pm, then sleep until 630 am or so. The past couple days he has woken at 8:30 pm (about two hours from when he goes to sleep). I try to settle and he does not settle. He seems to pull up his legs, but sometimes he just does this when he is cranky I ended up nursing him, and he ate like a champ! He drools and chomps on everything, but hasn't cut any teeth yet.

So I am wondering? Is it teething? Separation Anxiety? Tummy pain/hunger?

Wake-between 645 am & 7am
E: 7am
A: 730-9
S: 9-1030 (wake him once nap hits hour and half). A sleep doula said to do this. Does this make sense?

E:11am nurse & solids (ie. banana, avocado slice etc).
A: 1130-1pm
S:1pm -?? Usually b/w 30-45  min. Once in a blue moon he sleeps 1-2 hours. I think that has happened twice!

E:230pm
A:230-4
S:4pm- 30 min to 45 min. That is if he goes down. Sometimes he fights this one. But most of the time he takes a little nap. I do not let him sleep past 530pm.

E: solids with us at dinner- around 530pm
A:6pm bath
E:nurse between 615 and 630
A: story, lullaby then to bed

*if he wakes early around 6am sometimes, all these times are pushed up one hour

What’s nap routine? lullaby, soother, to crib
How long are naps? first one is hour and half (I wake him), second and third range from 30 min to 45 min usually
What's bedtime routine? Time? bath, nurse, story, lullaby, in bed b/w 630 and 645
Do you bottle or breastfed?? Breast
How much? or how long? approx 15 min
If breastfed.. one side or both?? (at each feed) He only nurses off one side. Other breast only has small supply.
How many wakes per night? Now one around 830pm. Sometimes he cries throughout the night, maybe once or twice, but cries for a minute then goes back to sleep.
What’s your LO like when waking at night? How long is he/she up? see above
When you go to him/her is she fussing or crying? Or is it a mantra cry? Totally up, on tummy, head up, crying and moving around.
What have you tried to settle?? Rocking. Signing. Homeopathic tummy drops. Nursing. Holding upright settles him.
What do you do for A time and how long is it? Play on mat. Sing songs, Read books, Jumper/Exersaucer
Are there developmental issues such as teething or milestones? Possible teething and learning to crawl
Have you introduced cereal? Why, how much, and how many times a day? (for LO’s under 6 months)
Do they have a prop? If so what is it?
Do they have a love? blanky and bunnie and glowworm

Thx for all your help.

[Erin M]

I'd say that it's time to drop the cat nap.  I'd let him sleep as long as he wants for that first nap, then extend your second A time from where it is now and try to get a longer second nap.  I'm not sure what the reasoning is behind capping that first nap at an hour and a half....I'm sure there may have been a good reason for it, but I'd be inclined to let him go as long as he wants and see where that gets you.  I thnk what's happening is with shorter second and third naps, he's going to bed somewhat overtired and the having wakings early in the night. 

Hmm, looks like your first 2 A times are already consistent -- how does he wake from that second nap?  Happy and awake or crying?  For me, that's always the best indicator as to whether you need more or less A time before the nap.

It sounds like more of a routine issue to me than teeth or discomfort, so let's look at that first and see if it gets you anywhere.  What do you think?

[mama04]

Thx for the reply Erin.

So I agree, I think I will let him sleep as long as he can for the first nap, followed by more A time therefore hopefully getting a longer 2nd nap and no catnap.

But of course, this morning when I go to put him down...the construction workers decide it is a great time to start jackhammering right in front of his window!! Grrr. So here is todays wonky day already:

Awake:620am
Eat: 630
S:8:40-9 (I think construction woke him) Played/Cried in crib for half hr then back to sleep from 930-1020.

E: 1030
A:play may, jumper, eat (toast,avocado)
....and the rest is to be determined

I'll check back in and let you know how the next couple days go trying to implement the new structure.

[Erin M]

But of course, this morning when I go to put him down...the construction workers decide it is a great time to start jackhammering right in front of his window!!

Ugh, how frustrating. 

Good luck!

[mama04]

The rest of the day yesterday was as follows:
S: 1255pm-238
E: 245 nurse 500-chicken/potato
S:620 in bed with no fuss
*woke up around 930pm twice crying for a cple min then fell back asleep
*woke at 1030pm right before I went in for dream feed
E: 1035 dream feed
S: until 750! And I think it was the construction again that woke him up!

-Should I be waking him up earlier or letting him sleep in as long as he can? Will it mess up his bed time, or do we stay consistent with the same bt even though he woke up later in the morning?

Today:
E: 750 awake and nurse
S: 1007 down to sleep (took five min of fussing for him to fall asleep)
     1037-up crying (again maybe construction) I went in and settled him
     1048-1143 sleep
E:12pm nurse/130 sweet potato/avocado/apple
S:tried to put down at 212 (rubbing eyes/yawning) screamed bloody murder. Went to settle (re-position, offer paci).
   244pm cried himself/got paci himself and fell asleep

He doesn't fight/cry when he goes down for the night. Well very rarely. I would love if he would do the same for the naps.

Thx for reading ladies and any help would be awesome

[Erin M]

Those wakings in the early part of the evening are usually because of over tiredness.  Glad your night was good though!  I'd let him sleep, though not super late -- he was probably just catching up from the night before.  I think right now you're just pushing through the changes in A time and working through to a new routine.  I would keep trying to push your A times slowly -- at 7.5 months we'd expect about 3 hours of A time.  He could be crying because he's not ready for a nap yet -- he does his longest A time before bed and goes down the best for it. 

[mama04]

Hey Erin,
I was thinking that maybe he needed more A time, but I didn't want to introduce so much time at once (usually was 2 hrs). Also, I am always wondering if since he is showing sings of being tired if I don't put him down will he be overtired? Catch 22?!

This afternoon he slept from 244-314. Woopee! A big half an hour. (insert sarcasm). Then I tried to get him back to sleep but he was not having it. So I guess early bed time for him.

Its weird b/c he used to sleep so well (hour and half) and go down no problem for the morning nap after only 1.5-2hrs A time. But like you said, he goes to bed easy after the most A time. Hmmmm......these babies sure get us guessing.

I am going to try and get to 3 hours A time and see if that will make him go down smoother for his naps? But then how does that effect feedings? I usually nurse every 4 hours. But if he is up for 3, then sleeps for hopefully at least an hour or more, will that mess up his feedings? I usually wait an hour after he wakes to nurse. But now would I nurse him as soon as he wakes (I do it as soon as he wakes from his nighttime sleep).

[Erin M]

I was thinking that maybe he needed more A time, but I didn't want to introduce so much time at once (usually was 2 hrs).

Yes, this is very smart.  I'd just keep pushing it by 10-15 minutes every few days until you get there which will keep him from getting too OT. 

The tired signs are tricky, sometimes they're just so used to sleeping at certain times, they show tired signs when they're not truly tired.  Sometimes a change in scenery or an interesting toy will help. 

This afternoon he slept from 244-314.

How did he wake up?  Happy or crying?

I am going to try and get to 3 hours A time and see if that will make him go down smoother for his naps? But then how does that effect feedings? I usually nurse every 4 hours. But if he is up for 3, then sleeps for hopefully at least an hour or more, will that mess up his feedings? I usually wait an hour after he wakes to nurse. But now would I nurse him as soon as he wakes (I do it as soon as he wakes from his nighttime sleep).

OK, this is where things start to get a little bit tricky with the eating/sleeping.  As you move towards longer A times, the times between your feedings start to get a little scattered -- you just have to remember that you don't need to be on a strict 4 hour eating routine as he gets older.  You would either feed after both his naps and then have a shortened time between the last two feeds -- or feed before the first nap (which would put you with more feeds in the morning) and then midway between the naps and then before bed -- really, you just have to look at your day as a whole and see where the feeds best fit in.  Lots of people prefer feeding directly after the first nap, you'd just want to be reassured that he doesn't wake from the first nap out of hunger, if that makes sense.  There's a period of a few months when you're on 2 naps, 4 milk feeds, and 3 solid meals a day where you feel like you spend the entire day feeding or trying to get your LO to sleep.    It does all work out though. 

[mama04]

This afternoon he slept from 244-314.

How did he wake up?  Happy or crying?
-he woke up crying his head off

Saturday:
Awake 7:15am (slept from 630pm with one df at 1030pm the night before)
E:730 nurse
S: 945 down for nap (at mom's b/c had dentist appt) - fell asleep at 955- woke at 1030 (woke up screaming) *why such a short nap? He was up 2hr40min
E:1130 nurse
S:126 fell asleep on own, no fussing
    211-woke crying a bit, found soother & blanky and back to sleep 220 until 311
E:330 nurse / 500 solids / 615 nurse
S:615 down very quickly with no fuss
   900 up crying for cple of sec
E:1030 dream feed

Sunday
Awake 611am-seemed to be mantra crying. Left him to settle but then turned into screaming by 625 *I wonder why the early wake if slept well? Seemed tired when he woke up/ fussing a lot
E:630 nurse / 730 solids
S: 811 down to no sleep with no fuss / asleep by 820- awake up 950 *when I put him down for his first nap around the 2hour mark, he seems to go down fine and sleep for about an hour and half. When I try and stretch it to three hours, that seems to give shorter naps and makes him fussy
E:1015 nurse
S:1220-105 (in car seat)
E: 220 nurse
S: 405 down for nap with no fuss until 5pm *had to throw in the third nap since he was tired
E:530 nurse / solids 6pm / tried to nurse again at 715
S:down at 730 screamed for about 15 min. Had to go in and settle once.

I wonder how tonight will go. The past two days he has hardly been nursing. He does not like to wait for the letdown and comes on and off the breast crying. Will him going to bed around 745pm, make tomorrows schedule all wacky now too?

[Erin M]

Quote from: mama04 on October 19, 2012, 04:15:21 PM
This afternoon he slept from 244-314.
How did he wake up?  Happy or crying?
-he woke up crying his head off

Generally, that would probably mean that he was overtired when he went down for the nap.

I *think* that you might need to go slower on the A time increases for that first A time (which was always really hard for us too).  If you go a little slower, maybe just stretch to 2.15 for several days, where does that get you?  It does seem like the 2.40 was too much for him all at once. 

With your 6:11 Sunday wakeup, he had gone to bed at 6:15 the night before -- at 7.5 months, it's not realistic to expect them to do more than 12 hours at night -- in fact, he's probably at the point where you're going to need to shoot for closer to 11 at night -- so the EBT is really just adding the hour on to the 11, if that makes sense. 

I wonder how tonight will go. The past two days he has hardly been nursing.

And here's another thought -- given this ^^^^^ and some short naps and early wake ups, those would all point to teeth in my house.  With ds, and dd2, we never had horrendous days/nights with teething but the discomfort would be enough to cut naps short and create some problems in the early AM. 

[mama04]

Hey Erin,
The past two days haven't been too bad. I think maybe I just need to find the right amount of A time.

Mon-
wake at 611am, playing in crib a little bed then fell back asleep until 7am
E:700 nurse / 750 solids
S:855 down to sleep with no fuss (1 hr 55 min A time) *do we consider the time he was up prior to his "awake" time as A time?
   -1025- wake from nap (1hr30 min sleep)
E:1105 nurse
S:135-145 fell asleep in car
    145-220 tried to settle/screaming like crazy
     225-325 sleep - wake a little fussy (1 hr sleep)
E:330 nurse/ 500 solids / 630 nurse
S:645 down to sleep / fell asleep at 709 after a little bit of fussing/crying
    111am- woke crying for a cple min then settled **whats up with this? He hasn't woken up in the middle of the night in forever!"

Tues
-6am woke crying, then fell asleep until 7am
E:7am nurse
S:905 down to sleep / 920 fell asleep on own with minimal fussing (A 2hrs20min)
    955 up crying for three min/ then sleep from 958-1134 (about 2hrs10min sleep in total)
E:1145 nurse / 1230 solids
S: 152 down to sleep (2hrs38min A)* he was super fussy/tired at this time after me trying to keep him up
    slept 158-220 woke up (I think spitting out his paci and cried for bit. Found soother. Slept till 232. Then up looking around putting face into blanket.
E: 330 nurse / 530 solids (his OT was here for appt so pushed dinner back)
S:down to sleep at 620, screaming bloody murder, had to go in and settle, then fell asleep.

-When he has short naps, I have tried to lessen the next A time. But then when I put him down for the next nap, he seems to be up playing and doesn't fall asleep? But I don't want to stretch it and make him OT?
-So if he wakes after half hour after down from a nap crying...he is OT?
-When he wakes playing UT?
-He always wakes in the am screaming his head off. Is this b/c he is hungry b/c he hasn't nursed since 10pm?
-It seems like such a stretch to get him to three hours. Its like he can only handle that much when it is for his BT.

Thanks again for everything

[Erin M]

111am- woke crying for a cple min then settled **whats up with this? He hasn't woken up in the middle of the night in forever!"

Possibly OT from that long A time before bed.  Who knows? 

S:855 down to sleep with no fuss (1 hr 55 min A time) *do we consider the time he was up prior to his "awake" time as A time?

Um, sort of.  I find that it will add on to your A time, but not as much as a fully awake A time, if that makes sense.  So count it halfway or so (really, you just have to play around and find how it affects him).

-When he has short naps, I have tried to lessen the next A time. But then when I put him down for the next nap, he seems to be up playing and doesn't fall asleep? But I don't want to stretch it and make him OT?

You might need to shorten it a little bit less.  Sometimes it only needs to be a little bit shorter. 

-So if he wakes after half hour after down from a nap crying...he is OT?
-When he wakes playing UT?

This is how it has been with my LOs, but it can also vary.  Some people will swear by the 45 minute naps are UT, 30 minute naps are OT rule as well, but with us, it never mattered what length the nap was, it mattered how he woke up. 

-He always wakes in the am screaming his head off. Is this b/c he is hungry b/c he hasn't nursed since 10pm?

Some LOs are like this, they don't wake gently!  It took dd2 forever to wake happy.  Are you sure he's just waking up then?  I think sometimes with dd2 she might have woken quietly but she was so quiet that we didn't hear her until she started screaming. 

-It seems like such a stretch to get him to three hours. Its like he can only handle that much when it is for his BT.

My LOs have always done their longest A to bed, sometimes by quite a bit.  Look at your day as a whole and see what his naps are telling you.  If you're getting good naps off of a shorter A time and your overall day is good, it's ok if your A time are inconsistent among your EASY cycles.  While not exactly textbook BW, there are lots of moms on here who swear by a 2/3/4 A time (2 hours for the first, 3 hours for the second, 4 hours for the first) -- or even a reverse 4/3/2 -- point being that all sorts of different things work ok, sometimes it's just finding what does work for your LO. 

You sound like you're on the right track -- pushing through with changing A times is hard!

[mama04]

Hey Erin,

Things have been fairly good recently. Although the past week or so, he seems to go down for the evening with more of a fuss. Tonight was almost 45 min of crying-and freaking out crying. We almost gave him Tempra but he then fell asleep. His two bottom teeth came through on Sat am. (Fri pm he was fussy and gave him Tempra for the first time). They are not completely up, maybe half. How long does it take for them to emerge? So I don't know if he is just tired or if it is his teeth that are causing him pain/discomfort. He looks like he is going to fall asleep (I have a video monitor), then wakes screaming. When I try to sooth, he settles for a bit and then cries, pulling out his paci. Pat couple nights he has woken around 4am but just to cry for a couple seconds and then falls back asleep?

Today was a great day for naps! Lately his naps have ranged from 40 min to 90 min. But here is todays EASY.
Wake 630
E:nurse, 730 solids
S:830-1025 (two hours in the am seems to still work best for him. When I increase the time, he seems to not sleep as long)
E:1045 nurse
E:135 nurse
S:150-315
E:330 nurse, 5 solids, bath, 630 nurse, story
S: put down at 645, screamed and cried until 745

Should his third A time be longer than 3.5 hours? Sometimes when I stretch to 4 he seems OT? Usually his A times are 2, 3.5, 3.5. I sometimes think it is not his teeth at night b/c he is not like that during the day and if it was bothering him with pain it would be all day I would think. What is the "normal" amount of A time before BT. What are your thoughts as to why he may be crying before falling asleep for the night?

Thanks again

[Erin M]

What is the "normal" amount of A time before BT.

It can really vary.  For example, my LOs all did their longest A right before BT (which would mean you'd be shooting for closer to 4 hours, maybe 3.45?) -- but others find that their LOs need shorter ones before bed (which would mean that your 3.5 is too long!) -- the resistance makes me think that his A time is not right, but I couldn't tell you which way to go -- I might try the 3.45 for a few days and if that's an utter failure, try going the other way to 3.15.  The brief crying at 4 AM is something all of mine have done -- sometimes it's when we've been in the pattern of a NW for a few nights (or longer!) and they're working their way out of it.  Sometimes it's some minor discomfort, like teeth.  If his bottoms are halfway through, I doubt that it's those teeth bothering him anymore, but it could be other ones.  With my ds especially, the teeth always caused the most trouble before they actually broke through.