undertiredness causing overtiredness??

[mothergoose]

Hi everyone,
things have went completely askew over the past week and Im looking for any sort of help/advice. My 15 week old has always had a very short awake time - an hour maximum - and his naps used to go well if I got him in his cot before that time - 1.5hr to 2 hr naps at 3hr intervals. But last week his nap length started decreasing to strange times like 1hr 10min or 1hr 15min then towards the evening he seemed to be becoming progressively more overtired (I think because he wasn't getting his usual 2 hr naps) so much so that we had a couple of awful nights where he was waking every two hrs on the button (sleeping for only 1.5hrs at a time after feeding) He was waking crying and think he was really really overtired.
So I thought he was ready to increase his a time in the morning and that this would hopefully lead to longer naps again and stop the evening overtiredness. So I have tried increasing his a time by a tiny amount in the morning (first nap increasing from 45min until 50min from being awake until I put him in his cot...would usually take 10-15min to fall asleep so asleep within one hr) This has resulted in disaster!!!
When I do this he lies in his cot for about 50min not crying just making little frustrated noises because he seems unable to fall asleep...usually he has no trouble falling asleep! He then either starts crying so I go to him and try anything to get him to sleep or he finally falls asleep but naps for only 45min and wakes up crying...I am unable to extend the nap! The rest of the day is then completely thrown off as when I get him up from one of these naps he is only able to stay awake for about 35min before getting really fussy!
So as a result of trying to extend a time I have managed to drastically shorten it!
So at the minute Im just trying to get rid of this overtiredness but my question is what do I do then...how do I increase a time without causing this overtiredness? And if it does cause overtiredness should I persist with increase in a time or try to get rid of overtiredness first?
Any advice would be much appreciated for a very overtired baby and mum!
Thankyou!!

[Ima shel Alon]

Approaching 4m there is a bit increase in A time so it could be that the little you tried to increase was too little or that you didn't offer it for enough days.
This is right for whenever you are increasing A times, you will need to do this many times in the next few months: You increase by 10-15min every 3-4 days. You would need to be consistent during those days and stick to the new A to give LO enough time to settle into the new A. The 3-4 days will prevent him from getting OT.
After 3-4 days if you are still getting UT naps (45min-1:20h long) then you do another jump in the same way.
It is possible that you'd need to ignore tired cues during those days.
What you are describing is very normal, we have all been through the UT/OT vicious circle and it's not nice. But the good thing is that in most cases an increase in A time just does the trick
Have a read here: Average A times and "Is my baby ready to increase A time?"

Also at his age he is transitioning to 4h EASY, you can read about it more here: Time to Transition - 3hr, 3.5hr or 4hr EASY
HTH!

[mothergoose]

ok thats really helpful...should I be increasing every a time by 10-15min or just the morning one? So far I have just been increasing the first two a times then seem to spend the rest of the day putting him down earlier and earlier as trying to catch up before evening...still seem to end up with a very overtired baby in the evenings. And even if he seems really overtired should I keep going with the new a time every nap for 3 days? In the end should he then start taking proper length naps then after these three days? As when we have started it he seems to take 45min naps and still seem very tired when wakes up so assumed OT. At the minute I have just put him down for a nap after forty minutes as he seems really tired and fussy...dont know if this is because he was up a lot last night and is still trying to catch up from overtiredness or if he is just trying to adapt to new a time in the morning? Im really confused! Do you think Im right to put him down early to try and get rid of overtiredness first and then try again with increasing activity time once I have this sorted?
It makes me really sad putting him down thinking he might not be tired enough as hate to think of him lying in his crib really frustrated because he isnt ready to sleep but at the same time I think Im terrified of OT as he gets so upset and distressed with it!
Thanks for your help x

Also forgot to ask do you think I should just use props to get him to sleep e.g. feed him to sleep during this transition phase? as the total awake time ends up being far longer than the original 10-15min I meant to increase it by as he seems to forget how to fall asleep when I keep him up this bit longer. thankyou!

[Ima shel Alon]

ok thats really helpful...should I be increasing every a time by 10-15min or just the morning one? So far I have just been increasing the first two a times then seem to spend the rest of the day putting him down earlier and earlier as trying to catch up before evening

I personally always did all the A, but if that works better for your LO then do that.

still seem to end up with a very overtired baby in the evenings. And even if he seems really overtired should I keep going with the new a time every nap for 3 days? In the end should he then start taking proper length naps then after these three days?

You mentioned that you are trying to let him catch up on sleep, right? How are you doing that? Is there any AP or props that will work?
The best would be to let him catch up on sleep and then start and increase the A.
In theory yes, you are sticking to the longer A even if you had a couple of OT days. After 3-4 days you need to see if you are getting again UT naps - then you do another increase, if naps are good - 1.5-2h then you don't do anything, if they are still OT (30-35min) then you either stick to the A for a few more days or go back to a shorter A.

Do you think Im right to put him down early to try and get rid of overtiredness first and then try again with increasing activity time once I have this sorted?

Like I said, I think you are right to do that, but you need to be cautious there because many mommies are confusing UT with OT. My DS yawned throughout his A and I was always sure he is OT but he was US and bored, he needed more A and to DO a bit more in his A then just lying around.

he seems to forget how to fall asleep when I keep him up this bit longer

IMO it's always ok to AP and use props if you aware of what you are doing and willing to deal with the consequences. If he used to fall asleep interdependently and is now not it could be that you put him down UT or OT for his nap and then he needs help falling asleep.

[mothergoose]

Im helping him catch up on sleep mainly by shortening his a time after the first two naps...as he seems to fall asleep easier and stay asleep longer if I put him down after 40-45 minutes. I know I think I sometimes do confuse UT and OT...seems to be in the morning he is UT then by the evening he is OT...its so hard. Thanks for all your help..if he gets a good night sleep tonight hopefully he will be back on track and not OT anymore and Im then going to start again in the morning with the longer A and Ill let you know how I get on! 

[Ima shel Alon]

I am here Let me know how you are doing.

[mothergoose]

Logged on this morning for some help please! This morning he woke at 6:30am after a better night - waking 3 hourly instead of 2 hourly and easy to settle after feed. I kept him up for 50min in the morning as he normally cannot do very long at this awake time (usually keep him up 35-40min) He then slept for just 30min but awoke happy so assumed he was undertired. Got him up and kept him up for another 50min before putting back in cot (usually 45min at this nap and didnt want to increase it anymore as he had such a short first nap) Have now put him down and he has been trying for half an hour to get to sleep - not crying just mumbling....He doesnt normally take this long and I dont know if it is because he is still UT or if he is now OT? I dont know whether to go and get him up again or try feeding him to sleep. Im also not sure what to do if he has a short nap this time...will I increase his a time to an hour to try and ensure he is not undertired again and sleeps longer or will I shorten his a time as Im pretty sure if he has another short nap his baseline at the start of the next a time is going to be tired? Bad start to the day! Feel like Ive really messed it up and not sure how to get back on track 
Thanks for any help!

[Ima shel Alon]

Ok, don't worry, we all have days that goes off a bit. Tomorrow is a new day.
I always tried to just go through the day, there is not much you can do and it's a bit difficult to "save" it, yk?
I think he was UT for both naps, that's why woke up happy from the first nap and found it difficult to fall asleep for the second one. IIWY I'd feed to sleep for the second nap.
At the rest of the day try and give a normal A, not a shorter one because he had short naps, some babies need a full A after a short nap.

[mothergoose]

Fed him to sleep for his last nap and he finally slept for 2 hours...increased a time by ten min again for the nap after so played with him for an hour before putting him in his cot...still think he was undertired though as took him a long time to get to sleep again. Do you think its possible that hes had a very sudden long increase in his waketime? It just seems to have happened overnight that he is suddenly able to stay awake much longer!! I have been increasing a time slowly as worried about causing overtiredness but now Im wondering should I just keep him up for an age-appropriate length like 1 and a half hrs like barefootmomma before his next nap...or do you think thats too big a leap from 1 hr? Also can I just check by A time are you referring to total awake time including time eating and time taken to fall asleep? If so then he is currently on about 1.5hrs but that is because its taking him 30min to fall asleep the past few times!
Thanks for the support!!

[Ima shel Alon]

How are you doing with the increasing of the A now? Where are you at with it? Are you sticking to the higher A? Are you finished with the first increase?

[mothergoose]

Yes things definitely seem to be improving with the longer A. Today I increased his first A to 1hr 5min and he fell asleep much more quickly - in ten min - and slept for 1 hour but had dirty nappy so not sure if this woke him early. His next A I increased to 1hr 10min as his morning A is usually shorter and again he fell asleep within 10min and slept for 1hr 50min with about ten min grumbling half way through at the 45min mark but put himself back to sleep. When I got him up from this nap though he seemed tired through his A time and I put him down after an hour as he was becoming very frantic and limbs quite jerky.....he is now asleep after ten min again so I will see how long he lasts. Overall definitely an improvement though 
Hopefully once I get his daytime A sorted his nighttime will improve too as last night he woke up a lot again - 9:30, 12:30, 2:45, 5:30 - I fed him and he settled but not sure he is waking out of hunger!

[Ima shel Alon]

Maybe he is hitting the 4m GS a bit early? It's a really big one.

It does seem like there is an improvement already. If it's the first day you did 1:05h and 1:10h A time then try and stick with for two more days and then we can decide together if to up it more or it's enough for him (but I think we would need to up it more...)

[mothergoose]

We are now at 1.5hrs a time before putting in cot and it definitely seems be working better for him during the day...He now goes to sleep straight away without any grumbling at all. naps tend to be 1.5hrs...he rarely makes it to two hours now like he used to but I think he wakes out of hunger as he is used to feeding 3 hourly. The only thing is his night sleep seems to have now been thrown off...Im not sure it is related to his new A or just a coincidence but he is waking 2 hourly exactly throughout the night and crying...settles really quickly back to sleep after feeding but sometimes only feeds for 2 minutes so dont think it is hunger...He also isnt feeding anymore often than usual during the day. starting to think he is maybe teething or something as he also has his hand in his mouth constantly so hopefully this night wakening will be a temporary thing!
Thanks for the help!

[Ima shel Alon]

We are now at 1.5hrs a time before putting in cot and it definitely seems be working better for him during the day...He now goes to sleep straight away without any grumbling at all. naps tend to be 1.5hrs...he rarely makes it to two hours now like he used to but I think he wakes out of hunger as he is used to feeding 3 hourly

That's great. 1.5h naps are still restorative naps, it's all what is shorter than that you should be worried about

With the NW I would just wait and see. It could be that he is a bit tired from the day and that wakes him up at night, in this case it will settle in a few days.
Are there any signs of discomfort? Does he have Reflux?