hunger or habit?

[cre8trixx]

So we have been trying to manage DD2's sleep in stages since she was about 3mos old with limited success. We were able to move away from nursing to sleep for naps at around 5mos (though recently she is only willing if someone other than her Mama is tucking her in which has me feeling rather useless of late.) We did however only by exchanging one prop for another by offering her a paci and back rub instead of the breast (DH's design which has worked well for he and her caregivers at daycare.) She extended he NW's from 3 to 5 hrs at which time I consistently nurse her back to sleep though lately she will watch me for an hour while doing so and takes anywhere from 1-2 hrs to settle back down which is hugely disruptive for us both. Recently she graced me with an 8hr stretch for two nights in a row which has me thinking perhaps her wakings are habitual and not hunger related. She seems to be teething though I haven't felt any and has been fighting a number of colds throughout the winter season so we are a bit all over the map as you might expect. We are hopeful third time will be the charm when we tackle independent sleep following our upcoming trip to Arizona in a month however before then, I would like to figure out her NW's. Last night I watched her play in her crib for an hour from 4:30-5:30am before calling out for me on the video monitor, we nursed and then her dad had to come in to pat her back down (she seems too stimulated by me or better soothed by him, i'm not sure which...) She also seems to be in that dreadful transition from three naps to two though if she clocks an hour fifteen for at least one of her naps, I'm thrilled. She is EBF and well on her way with her solids but my supply has been a struggle to maintain since returning to work so I'm concerned about eliminating any feedings as I think we are just getting 20ozs of milk that her pediatrician said would satisfy without having to supplement. How can I determine if these NW's are hunger or habit related? Any suggestions are GREATLY appreciated!

[Erin M]

How old is she now?  Night feeds (especially in BF babies) are really quite normal for many of them until close to a year.  I have 3 -- now if you're counting the dream feed as a night feed (which you definitely could!), dd1 quit night nursing at 8 months, dd2 at a year, and ds around 11 months.  So, I wouldn't feel pressured to be dropping night feeds.

That being said, those long wakeful periods in the middle of the night are often routine related and usually signal a need for more A time during the day.  I saw you mentioned the 3-2 nap transition, it could very well be that some of the wakefulness at night is related to that. 

In my experience, hunger wakings generally don't go away so easily -- with my ds especially, I could resettle him and get him back to sleep and he'd just wake 10-20 minutes later looking to be fed....again and again and again.  If it's more of a routine issue, you'll find that she won't go back to sleep even after you feed her.

What's your daytime routine look like?

[Erin M]

Also noticed you mentioned she has a paci -- is she looking for it when she wakes? 

[cre8trixx]

Sorry for the delayed reply...turns out DD2 followed DD1's example from last week and came down with something that resembles the flu so we are in full on do whatever it takes to make her feel better mode. That said, I wanted to thank you for your timely response and answer the questions you asked. DD2 is 7.5mos. She never responded well to a dream feed as it seemed to disrupt her natural rhythms so we are usually waking 2-3x/night.

Our days pre-flu looked loosely like this:
7/7:30 wake & BF
8:30/9 solids
10-11 nap 1 (generally 55min)
11:15 breast milk (bottle if at daycare, breast if at home - I work 3 days/wk)
12:30 solids
1:15-2:30 nap 2 (1h15m is usually her  longest of the day)
3 breast/bottle
4 solids
4:45-5:15/5:30 catnap which we are trying to phase out but on days when we feel we can BT moves up to 6:30 and is often a challenge since her A time is then too long given the short daytime naps (she has taken a 1h30m-2h nap maybe three times in her life)
5:30 breast/bottle
6:15 mum mum snack while DD1 has dinner
6:45 bath, breast, book, paci
7:15 BT (sometimes she wakes 45mins later & needs resettling)
midnight BF
4:30/5 BF

As for the paci, we have regrettably been pushers since she was a nurse to sleeper and needed to go  to daycare but I often think she'd just assume skip it. When she wakes, she doesn't look for it except to play with it or toss it out of her crib. If I offer it in lieu of the breast at night she throws it at me. It generally only works at bedtime as a cue that sleep is coming.

Relieved to hear the multiple nighttime feedings are common though I gotta say, I'm exhausted!!!
Thanks again for the feedback

[Erin M]

Yuck, it has been a nasty winter for sickness!  Hope your girls feel better soon!

Looking at your routine -- I would say that you do need to lose the cat nap, though I can understand the difficulty with that when you have a short napper.  I would try to see if she'll stand for a little bit more A time first thing in the morning (though not much as you're already doing a good amount) and see if you can get a longer nap.  There's also a chance that she's one who will do well with different length A times throughout the day -- my ds would do his longest A time before bed, other babies do their longest first thing in the morning.  Also, I'm not sure how much she's taking in the way of solids right now in the morning, but as your first A time lengthens, you can always try feeding her before the nap in case it's hunger that's waking her up.  That being said, I will fully admit that my ds was a pretty miserable napper until we got him on one nap -- he always seemed to be stuck between needing more A time and not really being able to handle those increases so well. 

Based on what you say about the paci, it doesn't sound like a problem.

When you feed her, does she go right back to sleep?  If she does, it's honestly probably  just a hunger waking.  (Not that it makes it any easier on you, but a quick feed and back to sleep isn't the absolute worst thing.)  If she stays awake after she eats, it's probably something else there too. 

I do so know where you're at right now -- ds was nursing twice a night at 7.5 months as well and when you get that far in, it really never feels like it's going away, does it?  If it's any consolation, I was able to drop the dream feed around 9ish months and then he dropped the night feed on his own at 11 months (and has actually been a pretty good sleeper since). 

[cre8trixx]

Well, her fever finally broke after 3 days of mama the human pacifier but she's still super congested. I started the think we had a tooth brewing as well since she's been chomping down on me and took to the chilled teether right away. She was already medicated for the fever. That said, she is now up twice a night for nearly two hours at a clip. I have nursed til I can't handle it any longer at which time I ask DH to step in. For NW this seems to work but some BTs have been brutal as she is demanding more nursing til sleep comes and then wakes whenever moved to her crib.I am now wondering about a growth spurt as well since shes nursing both sides which has never been the case. I dunno, Im probably reaching out of sheer exhaustion. I have thought about A time increase in the morning but she seems exhausted rather quickly...its no wonder losing 4hrs a nite! Then again one of these is happening at 5am so I guess thats really EW huh? I'm afraid I may need to abandon any nursing to sleep at nite to help her move towards independent sleep...so hard when she's so stuffy & upset. I've tried hanging back to give her a chance to settle herself too but this only seems to make her more alert. Sorry I'm all over the map here its just what my kind has been reduced to...mush! Thought I should just take her to bed again since we are in this wiped out loop but with DD1 sleeping almost peacefully next door to my room, I can't risk it...also feels like the final step backwards. I guess I'm at a loss as to where to begin...AGAIN! Any insight is deeply appreciated in advance!

[Erin M]

I have thought about A time increase in the morning but she seems exhausted rather quickly...its no wonder losing 4hrs a nite!

This is one of those chicken and the egg things -- either you can't get enough A time in her during the day because she's waking at night or she's waking at night because of not enough A time. 

Growth spurts are always a possibility, as is teething.  What's your sense on how poorly she's feeling?  We usually say not to do any sleep training when LOs are sick or in pain, but I would keep tweaking your routine as that will make your sleep training go more smoothly when she's ready for it.  I think I might try to get your WU time to a decent hour -- like maybe toss her in bed with you and nurse at that point if it will push her wake up time a bit.  Then try to slightly lengthen your A times and have her take/lengthen naps by whatever you can do -- (will she sleep better in the car/stroller/etc?) -- so she's sleeping for a decent length of time.  If she's super stuffy, you're going to be better off keeping her a little upright anyway.  That way, you'll get your routine more on track and hopefully prevent some of your NWs.  If she's nursing completely back to sleep every time you may need to work on weaning at least one of the night feeds, but if she's miserable, I'd probably hold off on that. 

[cre8trixx]

Erin,
Thanks for the feedback. It's super helpful. We have actually been quite miserable the past few days including her worst day of sleep ever on Sunday (4 30 min naps on someone only with snot pouring from the nose and drool pouring from her mouth - my poor baby!) but we may finally be coming out of it. Today I am commited to restore her sleep by whatever means neccessary so she can get well. Last night she actually slept from 8:15-2am (she went down at 7:15 but woke after 45mins) then woke for the day at 6:30am. Right now she is in the midst of a record breaking two hour morning nap! Your plan sounds great and I will begin to try to find some routine balance in the coming weeks...tackling true independent sleep will have to wait til our return from our travels at the end of the month, I think. I will also do my best to discourage the nursing to sleep she seems to have rediscovered (and i have enabled of course) through this period of illness. Your feedback has been incredibly valuable and I amd truly grateful. (As a side note, I tucked myself in at 8:45 pm last eve - I think my preschooler was still chatting in her room when I passed out - and with the exception of an odd panic attack trying to get back to sleep after nursing at 2am, most likely the result of actually dreaming for the first time in some time, I really slept for the first night in ages. I might just have to do this every day. DH is not so thrilled by the idea but I am feeling 100% better than I have been. Crossing my fingers it lasts!)
Anywho, thanks again!
~ Justine

[Erin M]

Sounds like you've got a good idea on how to move forward, glad we could help! 

And I really agree about getting yourself to bed early sometimes -- it's so hard to, it's nice to be able to have a chance to have time for yourself, but it makes such a difference when you do get to bed. 

Hoping things come together well as she gets better -- illness is tough on everyone!