How long do you do Sh/Pat if your baby is WIDE awake?

[cubbiesmomma]

I have a 15 week old LO and I have just started trying to get him on an EASY schedule.  I have been using the Sh/Pat method for a week now and I know it is working to some extent b/c he will now go in his bed without crying and even took a 2 hour nap in there one day (he NEVER napped in his bed before this week!!).  However, now that he's getting used to being in his bed and the Sh/Pat, he doesn't fall asleep quickly like he did the first couple of days.  He doesn't cry in his bed much anymore and seems pretty content, however he just looks around and stays WIDE awake.  If he does cry, the Sh/Pat will keep him calm, but doesn't seem to put him to sleep.  I think I am probably missing his sleep cues and he's over tired because the first nap of the day goes pretty well, but the rest of them have been much harder.  I'm wondering how long I should do Sh/Pat if he doesn't seem to be settling down?  Should I do it for the duration that I want his nap to be (1 hr 30 min) and then stop if he is still awake or at some point should I just stop, let him get up and try again later?

Thanks so much!!!

[Layla]

Hi there and welcome

You don't need to shh/pat if he's not crying...what does his EAS look like at the moment?

[cubbiesmomma]

Thanks for responding so quickly, Layla! 

The first couple of days the sh/pat helped him calm down and go to sleep quickly.  It still does for his morning naps, but sometimes for the afternoon ones he just lays there wide awake.  The sh/pat seems to keep him from getting upset though (he will cry if I leave him in the room alone).  But are you saying, I should just put him down and if he doesn't cry, don't do the sh/pat?

His EASY schedule is still pretty loose b/c I just started this on Monday.  Prior to that he was doing activity for 60-75 min, sleeping in my arms for 30-60 min and then eating as soon as he woke up (so feeding every 2 hours).  I was pretty burnt out so I started reading BW and realized he should be on a more age appropriate schedule.  I know I should have realized this much sooner, but I am a first time mom and I am just trying to give myself grace!  His first 3 days went much smoother than the last 2, so I'll list the approximate schedule from those days since that was what I was trying to repeat. 

Wake 7:30am (this has been consistent for a while)
E 8:30am (he doesn't seem hungry when he first wakes up, but takes a better feed if I wait a bit.  he only nurses for about 5 min so it doesn't interrupt his A time much)
A 7:30-9:00am
S 9:00am (napped about 1 hr 15 min)
A 10:14-11:40
E 10:30
S 11:40 (the best day was a 40 min nap, 20 min sh/pat when he woke up, 40 min more sleep)
A 1:15-2:40
E 1:30
S 2:40 (the best day was 1 hour)
A 4:00-5:15pm
E 4:30
S 5:15-5:45 (only got him to do this one day)
A 5:45-6:30 (or nap in carrier if he didn't take his cat nap)
E 7:00
Bed 7:30 (this has been consistent for a while)
NF 12:30am
NF 4;30am

I'd like to get him closer to taking his naps at 9, 12 and 3 but he doesn't seem quite ready for that yet.  Any suggestions would be appreciated!  The last 2 days have been SO frustrating since they have not gone nearly as well as the few days and I know he is not getting enough rest.  I think I am having trouble catching his sleep cues since he is so happy and content during activity time.

This tired momma, thanks you so much!!!

[Layla]

Thank you for posting your routine

Daytime sleep can take a little while to conquer so don't be disheartened if things aren't going as per plan . At that age, we were also battling short naps and if I couldn't resettle, I would give up and give a little more A time before E was due.

It's possible that your LO needs a little more A time - at around 4 months, you probably want to aim towards 4hr EASY (awake 2hrs, asleep 2 hrs). I only had the 2hr naps a handful of times and because I BF, we only made it 3.5hrs in between the E's. Our morning nap was the best (1.5hrs) and the rest of the day consisted of catnaps . She's only started taking 2 solid 1.5hr naps about 3 weeks ago when we dropped the 3rd nap and are now down to 2 naps.

At that age, our A was around 1:75hrs - so you could try and add a little more A (don't push too much, a gentle 5-10 mins should be fine) to see if it makes a difference. If you're struggling with the last catnap, then aim for an earlier bedtime instead.

You will probably have more chance of him taking naps at 9, 12 and 3 when you start to transition to 4hr EASY and it would probably be 9-10.30; 1-2.30 and a catnap at around 4.30/5 with bedtime at around 7/7.30pm.

So i wonder if he just lays there awake because he isn't tired enough... which is something you will work out if you give him a little more A time and see if it makes a difference. So yes, I think if you just put him down and if he's not crying you don't need to shh/pat.

How did you go yesterday?

[cubbiesmomma]

Hi Layla - I think you are right that he may be ready for a little more activity time.  In the morning, he goes down so easily after 1 hr 30 min of awake time (including eating), but the afternoons are harder.  Is it normal for babies to need more A time in the afternoon rather than morning?  We are still having the most luck with the morning nap, but the rest of the day consists of catnaps (I think it was 30 min, 20 min, 1 hr, 30 min).  I felt like I was putting him down for naps all day.  Although sometimes I could tell he was still tired when he woke up, he was happy during A time.)  It sounds like several cat naps in the afternoon is normal at this age?  Do you think it is okay to go in if he wakes up from a cat nap and try to help him go back to sleep for 15-20 min, but if he is not settling back down, get him up for more A time?

I so appreciate your help and advice!   

[Layla]

In the morning, he goes down so easily after 1 hr 30 min of awake time (including eating), but the afternoons are harder.  Is it normal for babies to need more A time in the afternoon rather than morning?

Morning A time is usually the shortest and I think you may onto something re: A times getting longer as the day progresses as I had a similar thing happen with my dd

The morning nap was our best too and it was the 1st nap to extend on its own. I used to try and extend a nap with shh/pat (sometimes worked and sometimes didn't, it was pot luck really!) and if I couldn't extend say in 15-20mins, I would pick her up and give her a little more A time. If he wakes from his nap early and isn't crying, I would just leave him in the cot up to an hour from the time nap started as he might even put himself back to sleep. I did this with dd3 and again, sometimes she would and sometimes she wouldn't but hopefully it gave her that msg that nap time isn't over yet . Of course if she would start crying and it wasn't mantra cry, I would try and resettle but if its mantra cry, I would leave her.

Is he swaddled? Does he use a soother/paci? Sometimes they can't transition if they rely on a prop and need it to get back to sleep...

[cubbiesmomma]

Yes, I do swaddle him and give him a paci.  Typically if he goes to sleep well like with his morning nap and night sleep, he will drop the paci without waking up and also be able to put himself back to sleep without it.  However, it does become a bit of a problem for afternoon naps where sleep is harder.  I have to go in every once in a while and give it back to him.  Yesterday he took an 1 hr 30 min morning nap at 9:00 and I put him down again at 12:20 and he only slept for 30 more min.  I think I waited too long, but I was trying to make sure I didn't put him down too early.  I left him in his bed for 45 more min b/c I could see he was trying to go back to sleep, but he was never successful.  I only got one more 30 min nap out of him the rest of the day until his dad put him in the front pack and got him to take a 45 min cat nap in the evening.  Do you think afternoon rest will come easier to him as he gets older?

[Layla]

The afternoon nap is always a bit tricky and for some LOs it never extends but I did find the afternoon nap get longer when we were down to 2 naps and until then, most of the time it was a good morning nap and 2 shorter naps for the rest of the day. It may be a case of him still learning how to transition and it takes time and practice  . How did he sleep at night?

[cubbiesmomma]

Thanks again, Layla!  I do think I am starting to see progress.  I have to remember he has only been napping in his bed for a week and a half now   I am still trying to figure out if he needs 2 or 3 naps plus the cat nap.  On Tuesday he slept from 8:50-10:10, 11:40-1:05 and 2:35-3:25, plus a cat nap in his carrier that evening.  Yesterday he slept from 8:30-10:15 (he woke up extra early so he went down early), 11:50-2:30, and a cat nap in the evening.  I probably should have put him down for a 4:00 nap?  I'm going to watch for a few more days to try and determine if he wants to take 2 longer naps or 3 shorter ones.  It seems like his ideal wake time is 1 1/2 hours right now.  He has been sleeping pretty well at night.  I just started doing a dream feed before I go to bed and he nurses one other time in the night between 2 and 4.  Prior to this he was nursing at 1:30 and 5 so he still has been waking up at those times but goes back to sleep easily if I give him his paci.  I am hoping he drops these wake up times soon.  Do you have any thoughts on his nap times for the last 2 days?

[Layla]

We were down to 3 naps at this age I believe but as I mentioned before they weren't always long (1 was and the other was hit and miss but our A times were a little longer than yours too). You're doing great with those naps!!! If his ideal A time is 1.5hrs across the day and you're getting nice long naps and he's not awake for too long before bedtime, then you can just keep it at that for now, until you feel that things need tweaking again.

I've attached some links for you to look through
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!!
Time to Transition - 3hr, 3.5hr or 4hr EASY
Sample EASY routines, 3-6 months

With regards to night wakings, I used to nurse as often as I would feed during the day (if she would wake) but we were doing anywhere from 1-2 feeds at this age (without the DF)...sounds like he's doing really well at night too 

[cubbiesmomma]

Thanks, Layla!   I think we are starting to see progress!  Today he napped from 9-11:15 and 12:55-3:30 and a cat nap from 5:30-6 (in his carrier).  I think I will try to slowly extend the wake time between the 2 naps to 2 hours if I can.  Do you have any suggestions on how I should schedule his feeds?  He just went from eating every 2 hours to eating every 3 hours a week and a half ago so I don't think he is quite ready to jump to 4 hours (he is EBF).  The problem is that his 3rd E of the day falls during the second nap.  Today I think I ended up doing Es at 7:45, 11:30, 3:30, 4:30, 7.  I can also look through some of the sample schedules to see if any of them address this issue.

[Layla]

Sorry I didn't get back sooner...great to hear you're getting good naps!!!

Today I think I ended up doing Es at 7:45, 11:30, 3:30, 4:30, 7.

Mine didn't do 4hrs between feeds until just recently (when we went down to 2nap) but if he's sleeping so well, he might be ready for 4hr feeds - he will learn to take more in at each feed too. I would probably have done a cluster feed at 5-5.30 pm after the 3.30pm feed.

How are you guys going with naps?

[cubbiesmomma]

Naps are going well!  I now just have to put him in his bed in his sleepsuit and give him his paci and he puts himself to sleep!!  His morning nap is becoming very consistent from 9-11.  His afternoon nap is hit or miss.  Sometimes it is a struggle for him to go back to sleep after an hour but sometimes (like today!) he can nap for 2 hours.  I usually have to go in once or twice per nap to give him his paci but he goes back to sleep pretty quickly.  We are trying to decide if we want to address the paci b/c it is becoming more and more of prop and causing more night wakings.  I also think we have hit the 4 month wakeful period though.  He was up from 2:30-4:30am last night chatting, laughing and playing in his bed.  This has never happened before! 

[Layla]

Ahh the darn paci - we had a love/hate relationship with it too (dd2). Loved it because it would send her to sleep in no time and hated the replugging part so I decided to ditch it and never looked back but that is up to you... if you feel its becoming a prop issue, you will have to shh/pat LO to teach him how to self sooth without the paci. We'll be there for support if/when you need it