8.5 month old - was sleeping through but back to waking & 2 night feeds?

[StephinScotland]

Hi all!

Not sure if this in an issue for the night waking section as I am wondering if it has got to do with hunger, eating solids or rather breastfeeding but I'll start at the beginning.

The wee man has been a pretty good sleeper and a angel / textbook baby with a few rocky moments but still pretty easy. He has been in hi own room since he was 6 month old and we stated solids at 6 months as well. He was on one night feed at the time which dropped the night he was moved into his own room. We were on holiday shortly after (beginning of November) where it all went to pots but back home it all settled into a lovely routine pretty quickly. I phased out the dreamfeeds at around 7 months over 3 weeks by moving them earlier and earlier till took no more and we got there about 3 weeks ago. I did note though that he started waking earlier and earlier, certainly well before 7 and going on 5:30 and when going to him, he wasn't interested in me but only my boobs... At the time he wasn't great with solids but that has since increased, he is on three meals a day and is still fed 4 times a day on milk. We then had three weeks of him sleeping OK through the night till around 6. We went through a spell at the beginning of December where he woke at random times in the night and sometimes managed to settle but a few times did not so I went over and tried to calm him but he escalated when I came in and only settled when I held him. He went back to sleeping through again but for the past 5 nights he has seen waking randomly again and only settled when I fed him. I tried to comfort by stroking over his head which always worked well with him but not now. I should probably be trying PUPD but I have a really sore back and find it hard enough to just pick him up and put him down once at the start and end of each nap - doing it a hundred times in a row is nit happening.... :-(

So not sure why he is waking, I assuming it is hunger though as he takes a full feed, but after that usually settles within a few minutes and goes back to sleep.  He knows how to self settle as initially when he moved into his own room, I sometimes heard that he woke but waited to see what would happen and he mostly just went back to sleep within 10 mins max.

Routine looks roughly like that although we have been struggling to get to the 2 naps for the past 2 months -  these days we are mostly there but he sometimes cuts short the first nap and chaos descends and we end up with 3 naps over the day...

Up: anywhere between 6 and 7
E: 7:00, BF, both sides
E: 8:00 solids
S: 9:00 - on good days 2h, on bad days 45 mins
E: 11:00 BF, both sides
E: 12:00 solids
S: 2:00 - on good days 1.5h, on ad days this nap started round 1pm and rarely lasts over an hour... 
E: 3:30 - BF, both sides
E: 5:00
(S: 5:00 catnap if napping failed, diner somewhat later then or no catnap and early diner at 6pm)
E: 6:30 to 6:45 BF, both sides
S: 7:15

His activity times are around 3:00, in the mornings sometimes a bit less but sometimes he will start yawning after only 2 hours?  His nap routine is usually some reading towards the end of the 3h, taking him upstairs, story, bed and I leave when he is still awake. He usually settles within 5 or 10 mins max although we have had a few days lately where he  got more and more excited and needed me or Dad to come in and help him settle, sometimes, just a bit stroking over the head, sometimes just holding him. At night it is similar but feeding is followed by massage, jammies on, Good night round, upstairs, brush teeth, story, music box, kisses and light out and he will usually settle within 5 or 10 mins, same as during the day.

Milestones and other development: we have got two teeth but I can't see any others on their way, he is a very quick combat style crawler now and currently practices pulling himself up into standing which excites him greatly - no sitting or proper crawling as yet.

Any suggestions welcome as to where the problem might be! Thanks a lot!

[Skadiver13]

So not sure why he is waking, I assuming it is hunger though as he takes a full feed, but after that usually settles within a few minutes and goes back to sleep. 

Hi Hun, I think this may be the issue. If he's taking a full feed at night and then easily going back to sleep I think he's hungry. 3 solid meals a day may be a bit much for him and it's affecting his milk intake during the day? How much does he drink before bed? It could also just be a growth spurt and it will settle back down again in a few days? You could give it a few days if he's only waking once that is not abnormal at this age to need an additional feed at night. If it lasts longer than I would decrease your solids at dinner or remove them all together to see if that helps is intake at the Bedtime feed? I know it sounds counterintuitive but solids at this age have far less calories and fill them up on less and don't last nearly as long as a good proper BF/FF.

As for your routine you may want to think about ditching the CN all together. Most lo's are on 2 naps fully by now and that may be casuing some issues? Is he average sleep needs? Do you see a difference in A times on the day he only does 45min? 45min naps typically are UT naps what is your A time like before those naps? Instead of a CN have you ever tried an EBT? Does he tack on lost day sleep with an early bed time? Some do some don't.

[StephinScotland]

Hi there and thanks for your thoughts! I must admit I am a little confused about the whole solids thing - initially he didn't want anything at all but the some 3 or 4 weeks ago he started to get the hang of it a portions got bigger and bigger. Re the amounts he should be getting I have been wondering that myself as I never used to make portions that big but whenever he had fished what I had ready for him he would still sit there with an open mouth so I slowly started increasing portion sizes and probably the last 4 or 5 days tried to find out if he would get to a "I'm actually full now" at all. And he did - but thinking about it, this might have coincided with the worst nights - as I thought he was hungry and tried to give him more solids rather than more milk.

You are right his evening feeds have been somewhat in the short side lately but then he has always been a very efficient feeder and just before we started weaning he took around 10 mins to drink on both sides and was done with it - these days he seems to have got even faster and often spends only around 6 or 7 minutes on both sides. Only in the morning it is mostly a bit longer...

I will try for a few days to offer extra BF to see if that changes the waking and at the same time not offer that much solid food as have lately as it just looked like too much.

Re the cat nap, we don;t do it at all if he manages to do two ok naps, so today e.g. and yesterday he slept form 9 till nearly 11 both days so all well for the afternoon nap which started at 2 yesterday and today. He slept till 3:30 yesterday and is still asleep at the moment. on days like this we get to bedtime with no great problems. It's the days where he wakes at 10 after only 45 mins and then only lasts till around 1 when I try to get him to catnap. I have tried early bedtimes with him but unfortunately he just seems to wake earlier and earlier, the earlier you put him to bed and isn't catching up on any lost daytime sleep... After the short naps he is usually really tired and grumpy and sometimes falls asleep again after only 2 hours - I usually try to keep him in bed if he wakes early to see if he goes back to sleep but that just never works - once he's up he's up, however miserable his mood :-(   

It was strange yesterday, he had two perfect naps from 9-11 and 2 till 3:30, was asleep by 7:15 and woke howling at 9:20... He took an hour to settle and finally fell asleep in hubbies arms. He woke again at midnight and I fed him, he fed for nearly 8 minutes on just one side and was straight back to sleep  and woke up today at 5:25  - we left him in his cot till just after 6 when he started complaining. Wondering if the last activity period is not too long after all as we get on to 4 hours of awake time - but would need to get the rest shifted with a bi longer A times during the day which might come with time?

As I mentioned before we have really been struggling with the 3 to 2 transition as he usually wakes earlier than 7, more around 6 and often round 5 and so his first nap was for a long time starting round 8 as he was just dead tired. It's only been the last 2 or 3 weeks that we manage to stay up till 9 pretty much every day. AS to why his first nap sometimes doesn't work  - might be OT or UT, seems to be a real art to find the sweet spot these days. But the last few days I have been actively winding him down the last 45 minutes, putting him in the carrier, reading books and a lot less activity which seems to help well.

Will try to tank him up on milk during the days for the next days and keep you in the loop - having said that, we're flying off for the X-mas holidays tomorrow to spend the days with grannies and grandpas and uncles and aunties and nieces and what not - am expecting medium to complete chaos and maybe it will settle once we are back home again!

Thanks again for your suggestions!

[Skadiver13]

You could keep his solids high at Breakfast and LUnch if you don't feel it's affecting his milk on those feeds than skip dinner all together give a BF instead and then another BF at BT that should help. I'm not a BF person as due to allergies we had to FF but if you want to pop on to the BF board they may be able to help more on that side.

usually try to keep him in bed if he wakes early to see if he goes back to sleep but that just never works - once he's up he's up, however miserable his mood :-(   

^this was us too unfortunately EBT has worked maybe 3 or 4 times in all so I feel  your pain. Once he's up he's up even now at 19M unless I ether rock him or do wiwo for a while.

Could be a combo of OT and pain related? Is he teething at all or gas from solids at dinner? Could be a one off thing let me know if that has continued. As for the first nap it's such a pain but pushing it out will eventually get him to wake later.

[StephinScotland]

Hi again, 3 weeks later and if anything, things have got worse. He can wake anytime between 9 and 5 once or twice a night, first just grumbling, not going back to sleep and then escalates into full crying, he will only settle and immediately go back to sleep when I feed him though he does fall asleep on husbands arm but wakes either as soon as he is placed in cot or shortly after. Last night he woke at 1am, I fed him, back to sleep, woke again at 4, did not feed him and he was up till just before 6 when he feel asleep for another half hour, then ip for the day - can he be so hungry? Tried to up milk intake during day but no change. Back to work in three weeks and dreading it if this doesn't change! Any suggestions???

[StephinScotland]

So, another night, the same thing happened. He woke at 10 and from occasional whimpers it turns into gull blown howling after about 30 mins. Tried say shying, patting, stroking his head, holding him and nothing, but nothing really works, he may drift off in my arms but very often starts up again without any apparent reason still in my arms... And he seems genuinely tired, eyes closed and all - but he just can't find sleep even though he did fall asleep within minutes at bedtime all alone, no rocking, no dummy, nothing.

If it was teething or other pain, would that not make going to sleep in the first place difficult?

I have made some changes to the routine since the holidays:
First nap never before 9, if possible 9:30 but he'll go to a childminder in 3 weeks time where he will gave yo sleep at 9, so trying to keep it roughly there...

Solids: good breakfast and lunch as before, diner between 4 and 5 and not usually that much.

Bedtime: starting at 6pm with last bf, in bed usually by 6:30 and asleep no later than 6:45.

Problem is that the second nap still mostly starts between 1 and 1:30 and never lasts till 3, so despite the early bedtime, the last slot is always well over 3h...

We had one morning where he slept till 7 but the last week has been a disaster with him waking between 10 and 1 and again between 2 and 4. Ended up in bed with him as I was just too tired to sit at the cot on the floor with him banging his head against the bars - strange thing is  even if i take him in bed he doesnt go to sleep but takes around an hour before he drifts off at last - same as in his cot.

Separation anxiety? Pain? Discomfort? Or brain overload? He is constantly pulling himself up these days, standing, balancing etc - maybe it's all too much? 

I am really wondering if there is any point in doing anything during these night wakings as nothing I do seems to make the slightest difference? And my brain is frazzled, don't think I am being very coherent here... 

[zissi]

hi there,

we have a very similar situation. my DD is 7.5 months and was sleeping through the night since christmas. for the last week she had a few days night wakings as you describe. nothing seems to help. I BF her and eventually she goes back to sleep although I doubt it is hunger. she has 2 teeth but isnt/wasnt bother when they were coming. I was reading up on separation anxiety and wonder weeks and it appears that she is just in the middle of the "categories" wonder week (she has always been on the money with these developmental milestones) so I guess your LO is going through the same thing maybe in combination with teething. I decided that there is not much we can do about it, just to avoid AP (which I had done during the 4 months sleep regression). I think working consistently on PU/PD will eventually get baby to sleep but I know its very easy to AP (rocking, BF, letting her fall asleep in arms etc) in the middle of the night when we are sleep deprived. Let me know how you get on, apparently its a phase which should pass...
fran

[Skadiver13]

If it was teething or other pain, would that not make going to sleep in the first place difficult?

Not necessarily if he's tired enough he may settle and then it wakes him after he's had a proper time asleep. But it could be gastro issues from dinner it could be he was OT at bt there are a number of reasons.

so despite the early bedtime, the last slot is always well over 3h...

So sounds like it could be a bit of OT.

Have you fed at any of these NW's? Just curious