A month of EW- please help me change my 8mo's habit Update- now 9mo & long NW

[Scottishmummy]

DS has just turned 8months.  He has a natural wake up time between 6-6.30 which is OK for me but for the last month he has been waking around 5.30. He just seems to have trouble taking that last sleep cycle.  I think 2 things triggered it- one was trying to drop night feeds- got him from 2 to 1 but then think I tried to cut the early morning one too quickly & he started waking hungry shortly after- so got in a habit of waking to feed early. The other was the 3-2 transition & I had trouble getting his A times right so sometimes they were too short in early part of day & too long at end which I think also contributed to UT/OT EW.

Now he seems stuck in an EW habit though & I try to resettle but this usually means either holding him to sleep in my arms or feeding or both & the time he takes to resettle & how long he sleeps for really varies, which is messing up our day routine.

Our EASY on an ideal, perfect day would look like this:

WU & milk : 6.15
Breakfast 8.00
A: 3
S 9.15-10

Milk 10.30
Lunch 12.00
A:3.15
S: 1.15-3.15

Snack 3.30
Tea: 4.30/5
A: 3.30
S: 6.45

I know the first nap & A time is short but he's definitely ready for it & the short first nap is a red herring- always been like this, never any different regardless of A time changes & he compensates with a longer 2nd nap.
The last A time is longer as I found he needed this otherwise he's be wide awake and hard to resettle at 3/4am.  Recently however he's been getting tired after 2.5 hrs in afternoon, so I wonder if there's some accumulated over tiredness.

He is able to self settle & does this independently for all naps & night sleep with no props.  The only time I need to AP to sleep is the EW.  He still wakes for 1 night feed & sometimes one other time when I try to resettle without feeding.  I've been trying to hold out on feeding but that keeps him awake longer in night, which maybe isn't helping either?

How can I get him to take that last early morning sleep cycle? Should I resettle but wake at 6.15 regardless of how long he's slept or not resettle, start day at 5.30 then push wake time later(how would I do this) Or should I tweak something else in our routine?

ETA-activities are playing at home, going to classes, park, visiting friends or family

Milestones- just trying to crawl & started babbling

Wind down routine- quiet activity in bedroom for 30 min pre nap/night sleep then story, lullaby then lights out & into sleeping bag in cot awake to self settle

No lovie as such but does suck on the sleeve of his clothes or on his sleeping bag  or on his hand

[Layla]

Have you tried feeding him and back to bed? You mentioned you were down from 2 night feeds to 1 but then you were also working on the last night feed and that's when you noticed he started waking out of hunger... also I noticed he doesn't have a milk feed in the evening and has a snack and dinner. At 8 months, I would still keep 3 milk feeds (if not 4) during the day.

Your routine looks good but is this what he's doing? Could you post what your last couple of days looked like?

[Scottishmummy]

Oops I forgot to include the bedtime feed- he has a long (for him) BF at bedtime.

Also forgot to say that he is usually quiet & calm when he wakes early, I only know he's. wake because I can hear him stirring on the baby monitor & I wait until he starts calling out before I go to him in the (vain) hope he might resettle himself. I then try everything to resettle him starting with soothing in cot, then shh pat out cot if that fails, then feeding if no luck yet then rocking him to sleep in my arms if all else has failed.

Here are our last few days to give you a more detailed picture of what's going on:

     Fri 29/11.                Sat 30/11.                  Sun 01/12.            Mon 02/12
WU 5.20.                       5.20.                         5.20.                  5.20.  (Really is always exactly same time)
Call 6.                            5.30.                        5.30.                   5.40
S.    no (fed at 6)            5.35 (soothed in cot). 6 (fed & rocked).   6 (sleepy feed doze in arms)
WU.                               6.10.                         7.                        6.25

Milk(BF) at 6 or waking
Breakfast at 8

A.    3hrs.                       3hrs 5.                      3hrs.                      3hrs

S.    9-9.40 (40 mins)      9.15-9.50 (35 min)     10-10.40 (40mins)    9.25-9.55 (30 mins)

Milk (bottle of formula- takes 50-100ml) - at 10.30/45
Lunch at 12/12.15

A.      3.20.                      3.20.                         3 hrs.                      3.30

S.      1.05-2.20.               1.15-3.05.                 1.30-3.                   13.20-15.20 - with resettling at
         2.30-3.20 (2hr15).   (1hr50).                     (1.5 hrs).                30,50 & 90 mins (2hrs broken)

Snack on waking
Tea at 4.30/5
Milk (BF) at 6.15/30

A : 3.30.                       3.35.                           3,15.                         3.45 (longer to settle)

S: 6.45.                         6.40.                          6.15.                          7.00

NW: 10-10.30 (no feed).  12-1.30 (feed at 1)     11.30-11.45 (no feed).  Don't know yet!
        2-3.15 (feed at 3).                                    2-2.30 (feed at 2)

I hope it makes sense written like that- put them together for easier comparison.  Sunday he had shorter A times as he seemed really OT, probably from bad nights of me resisting feeding for an hour. Have accepted he won't settle without a feed if he wakes after 12 now so just doing that to get more sleep for us both then will try cutting it back more slowly.
Today A times a bit longer as he's finding it hard to settle because of trying to crawl.

As the early WU time is exactly the same and has been more or less that time for a month now I'm wondering if it's become habitual & thinking of trying wake to sleep.  I can't face setting alarm for 4.20am (an hour before WU) as suggested on the description on sleep board.  Would it work if I went in just before DS woke e.g. 5.10?

Any other suggestions appreciated x

[Layla]

Maybe try feeding him as soon as you hear him stir and work on eliminating the 1am feed first... the early morning feed for us was the last one to go. I remember around 8-9 months, we also went through a phase of 5am wake ups. For us, it was a matter of chopping the morning nap but your morning nap is already short so I wouldn't cut it anymore. If it is exactly the same time, then w2s might work but 10mins before wake up would probably wake him up rather than help him transition to next cycle. I would do 1 hr as suggested (scary thought though!)

If you want to push the day forward, you would probably have to start with offering morning nap no earlier than say 9:15am and then push that to 9:30am. Our A's are a little shorter than yours, I wake mine about an hour into her morning nap (sometimes 45mins) and then offer her afternoon nap 3 hrs later and her bedtime is around 3-3.15hrs from the time her afternoon nap ends.

[Scottishmummy]

Interesting last night- I feel he's getting very hyper on an evening with trying to crawl so last night did a lot more quiet play after tea.  He was really calm at bedtime (too calm- had some trouble settling) and slept to 3am without a wake up! Makes me think some of his waking in night might be overstimulation before bed. Unfortunately I must have overdone the quiet time as he then couldn't get back to sleep for an hour even after a feed which is typical UT for him. 

Despite feeding at 3 & sleeping at 4.15 he still woke at 5.30 but settled without a feed, just with me holding him.  Makes me think it is more habit than hunger.  I can get him back to sleep but it is the having to get up at 5.20/30 every morning that I want to change.

Looks like the early alarm is needed  thanks for your help, it's been useful to just write it all down & bounce some ideas about. Will let you know how it goes x

[Layla]

How did you go last night? Did w2s work?

[Scottishmummy]

Last night he mixed things up a bit just to keep me on my toes!

Woke for feed at 1.30 straight back to sleep but w one again at 3.30 & not back to sleep again until 4.30 when I had to feed him to sleep to get him to settle.  I stayed in room with him and he stirred at 5.40 so I patted him & he stayed asleep until 6.30.

Not sure why the difficulty resettling at 3.30 last night but at least he didn't wake again at 5.30- will keep trying & see what happens over rest of week.

[Skadiver13]

Hi hun I'm glad you were able to resettle but be careful of the feeding back to sleep becoming a prop.

[Scottishmummy]

Think night feeding already is a prop/habit ..but that's my next challenge to sort out 

Still not cracked this.  Recently DS has woken for a 2nd night feed around 4am but straight back to sleep after.  I haven't done w2s then as he's only just woken & gone back to sleep but have tried going in just before wu time to try resting hand on him in cot to prevent full wake up (it worked to extend his naps) but without much success.

I think there's a pattern that if he's had a bad night of long NW he will resettle (maybe cos he's catching up on the lost sleep) if he's had a "good" night of waking but resettling quickly he won't.  I read once advice to someone else on the EASY board that some babies have an 11hr night so a bedtime of 6.30 & wu between 5.30-6 isn't actually EW for them.  Is it possible that is DS's pattern (when he's had a "good" night)? If so, how do I get a 13hr day from him without him getting OT?

[Skadiver13]

The rule of thumb I was told when My lo was on 2 naps it was  10.5hrs or more is a good night. My lo was a low sleep needs baby so if he did two goodish naps i could only expect a 10.5hr night. For a high sleep needs 10.5hrs may not be enough.. It's really different for every baby. 

[Scottishmummy]

Hi again

Thank you for the help at start of the month.  I managed to get rid of the 5.30am waking by going into DS's room just before he woke, laying hands on him to stop him waking & after a few nights he started sleeping longer himself.

He's 9mo now & we have a new sleep problem! I have got him to drop both his night feeds by gradually reducing length of time he nursed for over several nights.  He still wakes, usually around 1 or 2am and will re-settle without a feed but it takes 1.5-2hrs.  I shh pat in cot. He seems to resettle sooner but wakes again after 5-10 mins & this goes on & on with him getting increasingly upset.  When he does go back to sleep he then sleeps until around 6.

Our EASY is the same as start of the month- roughly-

WU 6am & milk
E- breakfast 8am
A 3hrs
S for 30-40 mins but sometimes has been up to 1hr30 if had a bad night
E-milk around 10/10.30
A 3hrs15
S for 1hr30(if long first nap) -2hrs (if short first nap)
E-snack around 3
A 3hrs30
E tea at 4.30/5 & milk at 6
Bed & asleep around 6.30

He can self settle for naps & night sleep and at other transitions during naps & night so I'm not sure why this one NW is so happening and for so long. He is teething and just started crawling & has some separation anxiety in day.  I'm not sure if the long waking is due to these or if we need an A increase somewhere? My gut feeling is that it's too soon for 2-1transition, or is it?

[Skadiver13]

Could he possibly still need taht feed? It's not uncommon for lo's to need a feed if they are going through a GS? Not sure but could you try for a few days to give that on feed? How long has he been off of them all together?

[Scottishmummy]

Hi- he just dropped the 2nd feed this week after gradual reduction of it but the long wakings have been going on longer, since I started to reduce the feed.  I did offer it a couple of nights ago & he only fed for a minute or 2 then came off. He will settle without it eventually.
I could try it again and see it makes any difference but then I would have to work on dropping it again.

[Layla]

If he eats and settles to sleep right after the feed, I would probably feed rather than spend 1.5-2hrs shh/patting... but that's what I would do. Jennifer (same age as your LO), sleeps through most times (average 4 out of 7 nights) but on the nights she does wake up, I feed her and I don't not feed her just because she has in the past slept straight through or because she's slept through the previous night, if you know what I mean. I think anywhere up to 12 months could be a genuine need for a feed and possibly after 12 months is may be out of habit.

With regards to the 2-1, he's taking one shorter and one longer nap, which is about right