Are our bad nights due to BFing prop? Can I keep 1 nf or must I nf wean ct?

[KookyK]

DS has never been a great sleeper, STTN twice.

Generally he feeds twice at night has sometimes been moving towards 1 feed. I feed on demand as I found scheduled feed times with my DD reduced my supply and led to end of BFing. He feeds often jn the day; whenever. I actually wouldn't mind feeding him once at night esp as its hot at the moment he may be thirsty and he had a bad tummy bug a couple of weeks ago.

On the one hand I tbink cutting back to one feed wd be easier than stopping. But then I think maybe its all or nothing and less confusing for him if we stop NFs ct. I know he doesn't nutritionally 'need' to feed.

Last night he woke and I fed him at 11. But then woke at 12.30. I wasn't goin to feed but suspect teething so gave calpol but he just wouldn't go back to sleep. Fed him but he was still mostly awake on/off crying/moaning sometimes screaming from 12.30-2. Most nights he now wakes 2-3 times.

He is in 2-1 nap transition too. But is LSN. I don't find a pattern between his naps and nights really.

He falls asleep usually alone from awake (me outside bedroom door unusually hve to sing gently - singing did not work last night tho!). He likes his lovey during feeds but not on his own in his cot.

Days look like this

A 6.30
S 11.30-1/1.15
Bed 6.30

Or two naps if up early eg
A 5.30
S 9.30-10.15
S 2.15-3
BT 6.56/7

[katie80]

Sounds like the rough nights right now may be due more to teething than to the feeds, if he was actually going toward one feed and now has reversed. . Generally though, if you don't see a pattern between days and nights, there's probably a prop at play.

I don't think you have to go CT if you don't want too, even if he technically doesn't need it. He can still be a better night sleeper with one feed. I think you just need to pick a time to feed, whether earlier in the night, say 11pm or midnight, or not til early morning (e.g. not before 4am) and then resettle all other wakes without a feed.

I kept one NF with my DS until 16mo (I did the 'not before 4am' option),
because it ensured he didn't EW and I enjoyed the one-on-one cuddle. He slept through the rest of the night just fine, although I did have to do some PD around 12mo to wean the other 1-2 NFs he was having.

[KookyK]

Thanks Katie I really appreciate your post and am surprised I feel relieved to read of someone else who managed to keep one NF. I think my reaction means I don't really want to 100% night wean.

I think there's a chance the feeds have become a prop I might hve some work to do. What did you do re PD - did u PD and leave (like WI WO) or PD and stay and say comfort phrase?

My gut was that teething has made things worse.

I do also wonder whether singing to him whilst good at BT was making him worse in the night? Maybe it was too stimulating?!

[katie80]

I guess there's a chance if you do PD at the other wakings, he may not continue to wake for the one you choose to feed at and then you'd be forced to give it up, but my guy kept waking.

What did you do re PD - did u PD and leave (like WI WO) or PD and stay and say comfort phrase?

I PD and stayed to say my phrase and also pat his back a bit. I actually did PD around 10/11mo, but the NW didn't completely go away, so I eventually moved to just sitting by the crib and having him lie down himself. Every time I PD I would cuddle him and give him a kiss and it turns out he was waking still for that... my only cuddler out of the three!

I do also wonder whether singing to him whilst good at BT was making him worse in the night? Maybe it was too stimulating?!

I don't know... possibly? Could you try to just use your sleep phrase from the door instead of singing and do the singing as part of your wind down?

[KookyK]

If he chose not to wake at nights - his choice - I'd be totally fine with that! But as he's fed so often to date I thought ct might be ambitious and I know I wouldn't mind getting up once.

Last night I fed him twice. Am too tired to hold out to be woken again not long after. The worst waking is he always wakes between 10-11pm and you can bet its always just as I've fallen asleep and it feels so awful. I always lose my resolve as I don't want to fall back asleep a second time after resettling without a feed to have to be woken and repeat or feed him a short while later.

Urgh I guess that I do need to try to push that one back tho eg to 11, then 11.30 etc. or I start a dream feed having never done it before? Get in there before I go to sleep?

[*Ali*]

I'm going to move you to toddler sleep since this is more of a sleep issue than a feeding one

[KookyK]

Thanks Ali.

Am I mad for contemplating introducing a dream feed?!?!

[*Ali*]

Not mad but I would honestly be looking at weaning NFs rather than introducing them. He isn't waking for hunger so a DF may not even make a difference. I expect he is just waking as babies do naturally in the night and he is used to looking for a feed before going back to sleep.
I weaned my two at 12.5mo and 15mo by just telling them there would be no more milk at night because mummy's boobies needed to sleep. DH did PD and walk out with DS1 and I mainly sat by DS2's cot and shushed PD if I needed to.

[KookyK]

Ali what were you doing with your second LO who night weaned at 15 months at this age (12 m)? Out of interest! We're u in a process of night weaning or just left it later.

Have started saying boobies going bye bye/night night a bit recently.

Also did you feed on demand or schedule in the day at this age? H is used to on tap milk wondering whether to change to a schedule now or whether daytime feeds can continue on demand...

[*Ali*]

I wouldn't say I was in the process of Night weaning no. I was just plodding along not too bothered by what was mostly one NW. There just came a point at 14.5mo when I decided I needed to sttn and not be woken and we wanted to put him in with DS1 and I didn't want him disturbed, so we took the plunge when DH was home for a few days. With both my boys I think I was prompted by the move to one nap and getting a longer night.
At 12mo I was feeding DS2 4x in the day, morning WU, at each nap and BT. He was having one NF, normally 4-5am and usually going back to sleep after it. Sometimes if he didn't wake until 5.30am he would refuse to go back to sleep and that would become our morning WU feed instead. If he woke earlier in the night (10, 12 or even 1am for example) I could usually get him back to sleep by sitting by his cot and just repeating that it was sleepy time, occasionally rubbing his back if he got upset. He was still in our room in his own cot until I weaned the NFs at 15mo and moved him into his big brother's room. He mostly sttn til 5am though while we were still doing the NF. We had tried a DF from around 5-7mo I think but it didn't make much difference after the first month so I stopped. Once I weaned the NF he started sleeping in later in the mornings until 6.30 or so and that eventually became 7ish.

Tbh I've never fed on demand after the first couple months and even then we kept a loose EAS format although it wasn't every 3hrs if he short napped.

[katie80]

I agree with Ali... I wouldn't start a DF at this point. I also agree it's not fun to be woken within the first hr of your night sleep. So, I think if you're looking to get rid of that 10-11pm feed, you just need to resolve for a few tough nights (maybe a week) and do it. You could go to sleep earlier, so you've slept a bit beforehand, stay up and wait for him to wake, or do it on a weekend when your DH can help. If you've set your mind to doing it, it likely won't seem so bad.

I found resettling the earlier NWs, even up to 2/3am not too difficult with an already independent sleeper. But, that early morning one was tough, and that's why I ended up keeping it longer. If I remember correctly, dropping that last feed also coincided with the 2-1 for us.

[KookyK]

Good points Katie. I need to go to bed super early a few nights this week and make myself! Am same with that 4am waking - DS has recently stopped EW quite so much if I feed him the. Whereas he used to be a 5am boy.

I wonder whether to offer water or just try to soothe him back to sleep.

I tried half heartedly (ie for 5 mins as v tired) to soothe him not feed at 10pm but his crying got louder so I gave in :-/ He does this cough-cry (like Tracey describes for tiny babies when hungry - he did it when tiny) which means he wants milk then it turns into an all out wail.

Last night he woke and fed 10pm, 1am, 4.30 but I managed to leave him and he was on/off quiet until 5am, then up at 6.45. Bt was 7. Rubbish naps yday cos he woke at 5.20 (naps 9.30-10.15 and 2.45-3.15 he resisted that one and normally sleeping after 3 spells disaster(.

[katie80]

You could offer water, but my guess is he might throw it back at you. As he's used to a nice BF, water likely won't offer much in the way of soothing. But, I could be wrong. I think when you decide to do it, you just need to steel yourself and help him get back to sleep without it. He'll be fighting mad, but I'm sure understands a lot, so it shouldn't take too many days all in all.

[KookyK]

So I had an early night and am more rested and can now try holding out on feed(s). What I've done last few nights is to not rush to his feeding cry and wait. I've managed to put him off by up to half an hour each time as he cries on/off not all the time.

 Also he has had wakeful patches around 4.30-5. If he's still callin for milk after 30 mins I've given it but if still awake I've not sat singing outside his door or gone back and fed him to sleep (apop at that sort of time oops) as per the past - I've just left him to it as he hasn't been unhappy and eventually he has gone back to sleep til a decent hour by himself which is good.

[katie80]

That's a start!